Welcome to Episode 73. Are you asking your client for referrals to get more business, or does the very thought of it make you feel uncomfortable or awkward? If it does, you’re definitely not alone.
And you’re also in for a treat because my guest, Stacey Brown Randall, will be providing guidance on how to get referrals without asking. Stacey has been helping agencies and service-based businesses for over 10 years, through her business, Building a Referable Business™, as the Award-Winning Author of Generating Business Referrals…Without Asking, and as Host of the Roadmap to Grow Your Business podcast.
In this chat, she provides lots of tips, lots of reframing, and lots of different ways that you can approach the process of referrals. We all know it’s cheaper and easier to get referrals rather than chasing new business, so these are some really special tips that Stacey shares. If you’d like to chat to me about account management training for you or your team, then visit the Training page and book a no-obligation call with me.
Transcript:
Jenny Plant 00:02
Today, I’m delighted that Stacey Brown Randall has joined me she is a successful author, entrepreneur and host of the podcast ‘Roadmap To Grow Your Business’. She has helped 1000s of business owners learn to generate referrals without asking. So I’ve invited her in on today’s show, to talk about how agency owners and account managers can do the same. Stacey, welcome to the show.
Stacey 00:25
Thank you, Jenny, so much for having me. I’m excited to be here.
Jenny Plant 00:28
I am excited about having you and really excited about getting into these questions, Stacey. So would you mind starting off by just saying, why did you decide to start teaching people how to get referrals?
Stacey 00:42
You know, it was actually for a very selfish reason. It was for what I refer to as pure, sheer necessity. I had a first business, it was an HR consulting firm, and it failed after four years. And when I looked back on why that business failed, and it was okay, I know, I’m meant to be a business owner, and it’s just a matter of figuring out what I’ll do next. And starting my second business, I knew one of the things I had to figure out was the business development. I had to figure out how to generate business, not just consistently, but in a way that I was willing to do consistently. Anybody can cold call for an hour maybe, the truth is, we can do just about anything, we just can’t do it forever. Or as long as we need to. And if we don’t enjoy it, and if it’s not something you’re going to wake up and be willing to do, you will find other things to do to avoid eating that frog. And business development cannot be the frog! Growing your agency, growing your business, can’t be the thing that you avoid until the very last hour, because you have to do it. Which means you’ve got to find ways that work for you. So when my first business failed, I said, well, what I was doing obviously wasn’t working, so what am I willing to do to grow a business? And for me, It was wait a minute, there’s this thing called referrals. and I didn’t get any with my first business, with the HR consulting firm. Actually, the first referral that business received, that first failed business, was two years after I’d already shut it down. And so for me, It was like, wait, but I did really good work, and they say that’s what you need to do if you want to get referrals. And then it was, wait a minute, they also tell you, you have to ask, and you have got to pay kickbacks and compensate. Or you have to put really cheesy things in your email signature, “the greatest compliment you can give me is a referral”. And none of that worked for me. None of that fit who I was, none of that fit my brand. None of that fit how I wanted to show up in the marketplace. And to be honest, I’m not interested in making other people feel awkward and uncomfortable, while making myself feel awkward and uncomfortable by asking people to refer me. There has got to be a better way. And so I spent the first year of my second business, it was a productivity and business coaching practice. I spent that first year going – we’re just going to throw some spaghetti on the wall and see what sticks in terms of how can I get referrals and ignore all the old school advice that’s currently out there. And in my first year in business, I got 112 referrals that I didn’t ask for, and that changed everything. I was onto something at that point, and I had clients asking me to teach it to them. When you have to teach it to someone, then you realise what am I actually doing? What’s the system? What’s the strategy behind it. And that’s almost 10 years ago. And we just consistently refined the process. Now we have a bunch more processes or strategies. I should say not everybody needs all of them, but just in doing this, and most of it over the last decade, it’s really given me the opportunity to peek inside a lot of different businesses. And I keep seeing the same things over and over again about when it works, because our methodology focuses on the science behind the referrals and why they’re ultimately happening, and then builds a strategy that we all will feel good and comfortable about using because if we feel good about it, then we’ll do it.
Jenny Plant 03:54
I love the fact that you just stumbled across this by sheer trial and error that is so inspiring, and that you’ve built a huge business and you obviously pivoted at some point. So you started with general business coaching, and then you’ve kind of narrowed it down to helping clients with this. Does this work for every type of client? Like what tipped it? Who is the typical client that tends to work with you?
Stacey 04:16
Yeah, so every business can definitely receive referrals. But based on the industry you are in, and the volume or the kind of the model of how your business is established, there are actually different strategies that you’re going to be able to deploy. So technology based or SAS based companies, they can deploy strategies that I teach against just because of the nature of who they are. I mean, the way Uber decides to generate referrals by offering you $25 Or a free ride next time? That’s a strategy. That’s the compensation strategy that works and is “humanless”, because, other than your Uber driver, you’re not really talking to anybody over at Uber – a “humanless” kind of strategy regarding referrals. So referrals will work in every industry. It’s just a matter of the strategy behind referrals that will work for specific industries. And so the ones that I work with are typically service based business professionals that are really focused in their business on building relationships. That doesn’t mean they are taking their clients to coffee every week or every month. But there is typically humans in their company that are interacting with their clients, and they build a relationship based businesses, a trust based business. And typically, the clients that I work with, someone deciding to work with you is no small investment. So the other thing there, is that when someone makes the decision to hire your company, they want to get it right. And so typically, they are looking for someone to recommend them to you, before they just decide to find you, that doesn’t mean they won’t, I just want the referral part of your strategy of your growth potential and your growth strategy to be based on what’s actually going to happen in terms of where those referrals are going to come from. So I do a lot agency owners, like your audience, but also with interior designers, real estate agents, financial advisors, coaches, consultants, and attorneys. So it’s those people, and think about what all those industries have in common – you’re going to know your interior designer, the same way you’re going to know the person building out your website the same way you’re going to know the person who is negotiating that contract for your business, you’re going to get to know them, there’s going to be a relationship there. And it is in those moments where my strategies are best suited for referral growth.
Jenny Plant 06:32
Well, we are definitely talking to the right woman, because these are service based businesses. And I think probably what I should have asked at the beginning, which I will ask you now is, let’s, for everyone listening, define what you mean by a referral just to be clear?
Stacey 06:47
I’m so glad you asked that, Jenny. Because the truth is, we all have our own definition in our heads, and we all think we’re on the same page. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that we are. And I see referral as used interchangeably, like word of mouth referral, or referral marketing, or people confuse referrals and introductions, I see people use different sales lingo, their sales terminology interchangeably. And all that’s done over the years is diluted the power of what a referral really is, and then we should be paying attention to it in our business. So for a referral to be a referral, and this is all based on why you want a referral, Jenny, if I were to ask you, why do you want someone to refer a client to you? What’s the typical response that you would have? Why do you want referrals?
Jenny Plant 07:31
My typical response was, that they are so impressed with the result that I have got them, or that they would want to say, Well, hey, work with Jenny, because she’s going to get you this result as well, she can help you grow your accounts.
Stacey 07:44
And so they trust you – there’s this level of trust that a referred prospect has that a cold prospect coming through a Facebook Ad just doesn’t have and in the fact that you can’t close them both, they’re going to show up differently. And when a referred prospect shows up, they already trust you. So they are quicker to close and easier to close. Typically, they’re less price sensitive. because they’ve already assigned a value to you, because somebody else has assigned value to you for them. And so when you think about it, that’s why we want referrals, it says we do amazing work, which let’s be honest, pat on the back – is always good, and it means the prospect is easier to close and to become a paying client and the definition has to represent that. So the definition of a referral is that there’s always number one, a personal connection, you have to be connected to the prospect by the referral source. That’s where the trust is transferred. Now I’m sure that there’s some folks listening right now, saying – Well, wait a minute, people tell me all the time that they told somebody else to hire me, and I always say, Yes, but, were you connected to them? Do you even know who they are? And it is a No – So there you get this great word of mouth buzz – it just out there, but you are still – I don’t know who the people are that need to hire me! Unless you know how to flip that word of mouth buzz right into a referral, it’s just going to stay out there in word of mouth land. And that’s not to say that word of mouth buzz isn’t good, but I’d rather you know how to flip that into an actual prospect being connected to you, because a referral will always, number one, have a personal connection from the referral source to the prospect to you. Number two, there’s always going to be a need identified, the prospect knows they are the prospect, right? They are ready to have a conversation with you. They are willing to meet with you, they will allow you on their calendar, because they know they have a problem that you can solve. If I’m living in my forever house for the rest of my life, and I plan to die in this house and never leave it until they drag me out. Then I never need to be connected to real estate agent, because I’m never going to sell. So you want somebody when they are connected to you to be the prospect because that means that they are ready to make a decision. That doesn’t mean they’re ultimately going to pick you but it means you have a better shot than most people that they will pick you if they have been referred to you because they know they have a need identified. They know they’re the prospect. I see this a lot with introductions. People will be like, Oh, Stacey, look at this, I got this referral, and I will read the email, and then I ask, Are you sure you’re not the prospect in this scenario? And they will say, what do you mean? I will say – there’s nothing in an email that says that they need to hire you. So it could be that you need to hire them. All you’ve done is be connected, the prospect has not been identified. There’s no need identified, you may show up for that coffee meeting thinking you’re talking to a prospect, and in fact, they think the same thing. Maybe they’re talking to a prospect too, because you both had one person who said, Hey, you two should know each other. Introductions are great, use them to grow your network. There’s nothing wrong with them. But let’s be very clear that they are not a referral. And the big reason why I want people to know the definition of a referral, is because I want you to know what happens next, – hey, I have a referred prospect or no, wait, this is word of mouth buzz, or Stacey said this was an introduction, then I want you to know how to respond accordingly, based on what you’ve received, because you can identify it.
Jenny Plant 10:58
So don’t make assumptions. Just be really clear and take the time to think about actually, what’s the scenario here. This is really deep, I would not even have thought about this. So why is it important for agencies to have a referral strategy? to have a real kind of think about what and how we’re going to approach this.
Stacey 11:21
Yeah, I think it’s important for people to recognise there’s lots of ways to grow your business. And there is not those that are wrong versus those that are right. It’s just what works for your agency and what works for how you want to grow your business. My personal preference is that our referral strategy is a part of the mix. I want it to be the biggest strategy, I want you to think my referrals produce the biggest results for me every year. And these other things work too, and they’re great, but I want the biggest piece of the pie to be referrals. And that doesn’t mean you only have to have referrals generating business for you – that’s amazing and awesome, but at the end of the day, I just want you to be aware of the fact that it is a separate strategy. When people typically teach sales, they teach prospecting, and marketing. And they teach prospecting, like the networking events, the leads, the groups, the 7 million cups of coffee, the associations, you’ll join, and to go to and all those events you’ll attend. So they teach that you should do some prospecting activities. And then they’ll teach that you should do some marketing activities, you should have a website, maybe have some social media presence, maybe get some PR, and some earned media, all are good. There’s nothing wrong with prospecting and there’s nothing wrong with marketing, you probably should have parts of both. But unfortunately, for the last decades and decades and decades, the way referrals have been taught is that they’ve taken the idea, the concept of referrals, and they’ve slammed them into prospecting and said, Okay, referrals fit in prospecting – so here are your tactics. If you want a referrals and prospecting mentality mode, then are you going to ask for them? Or are you going to network to know a ton of people. So always remember, they teach these strategies of asking and paying and networking all the time that are prospecting in nature. Or people who say no – referrals fit in marketing, it’s referral marketing, which is not a thing. Just want to go ahead and say that is one of my big beefs. But people say no- referrals or referral marketing, they fit in marketing, which means they teach you gimmicky and promotional strategies like putting in your email signature, “the greatest compliment you can give me is a referral”, which no one’s paying attention to. And it’s certainly not triggering referrals.
The reality of it is, that how most people teach referrals, they belong in prospecting, or marketing, they don’t, they actually have their own leg of your stool. So your sales strategy is not a two legged stool, with just prospecting and marketing. It’s a three legged stool, and the referrals is the third leg. So what I want agency owners to be thinking about is, Do I have a third leg to my sales strategy? Do I have a specific way that we go about from a strategic perspective, of generating referrals based on what referrals are, what they mean for this agency and the science behind how we make them happen, and then who’s involved in making that happen for our agency. It’s just another way to grow your business. Personally, I think it’s the best way. But at the end of the day, it’s still strategy and you’ve got to put it into place for it to work.
Jenny Plant 14:14
Before I asked you to give us a little bit of a flavour of some of your strategy. I just want you to give us a couple as I think there are going to be a lot of agency owners listening and cringing a little bit at what you are saying, because everything you’re saying, I am thinking, yes, yes – it is fitting under prospecting. It does fit under marketing. So I am sure there are people thinking what is Stacey’s going to say ? or Well, how should I do this differently? So just to give us a bit more of a flavour of the traditional route? Asking, putting in your email, what are the things that are a little bit cringy when it comes to asking for referrals that you’ve seen taught?
Stacey 14:52
Oh, my gosh, I feel that I have seen it all. And sometimes something new is going to pop up and I will be “cool I have not seen that before”? And I haven’t yet. I do see different ways of trying to do the same thing. So asking is the biggest- if you go to Google today, and you ask, how do I get referrals, it’s going to give you 900 million responses back about, here’s 25 ways to ask for a referral without feeling desperate. That is a legit article on Google- 25 ways not to look desperate when asking for a referral or something like that. I mean, if you need 25 ways, not to look desperate, it’s because you look desperate. Let’s just call it out what it is, call a spade a spade. And so asking is the big one. But it’s how people are taught to ask is sometimes how you see things shift and change, you should put it in your invoice. When you send the invoice, there should be something at the bottom of your invoice that says, Hey, who are three people, ? Or this one came out about 15 years ago, so it’s a little bit older, but it’s still around, and it’s terrible. It’s the “Hey, Jenny, I was looking through your LinkedIn profile, and you’re connected to these four people. Why don’t you refer them to me because they are my ideal client too?” Oh, my seriously? and definitely, you feel that “I don’t want to talk to you anymore. Because that’s creepy”. And so that’s how people are taught to ask, there’s lots of them out there that I think are very cringe worthy. The compensation is another piece. So you have lots of companies that will say, Hey, you should pay a commission, or you should set up a referral bonus structure, or some type of loyalty programme. Right now that’s going to work in some industries better than it’s going to work in others. But the industries that I work in, there is this idea, and put yourself in the position of the client, if a client is referred to you, and then they find out six months later, that they were referred to you by someone that they knew and trusted, they then got paid $1,000, for referring them to you. What immediately is called into question? It’s if you’re the right agency for them? Can you really solve my problems? Are you going to do amazing work? Or was I just a lead you paid $1,000 for and we called it a referral, which it isn’t at that point, right? It’s a lead. Now here’s the thing. If that client knew in advance, hey, I got referred to you and I recognise you’re getting compensated, then it’s fine. Because the buyer, the client knew it was buyer beware, everybody knows upfront what’s happening. It’s not a kickback. It’s not under the table its not a shhh, Don’t tell anybody, but I’ll give you 10% on any business you send me. If you are not willing to tell the client then that’s where we have a problem. So that’s another big cringe worthy place that I see. And I think the other thing is when people do really gimmicky and overly promotional things, I’ll be honest, I don’t see this so much in the creative space, but I do see this in the real estate space. It’s sending out a pack of extra gum with a little note that says I’ll go the extra mile for your referrals. Or sometimes I’ll see the bag of goldfish – I’m fishing for your referrals in a little note and I think, Oh, my god, stop it. Yeah, stop it. But here’s the thing. I do know, people who like sending out the bag of goldfish, then you get to do you because you’re an adult, or you’re the business owner. So you get to do it. But for me with the industries that I’m in and the way that I want to be seen by the marketplace, and the way that I want my clients to trust me, I just need to have a different reputation. I just need to be elevated in a different way. And so those are some of the main cringy things that I would say I see the most. But the worst, at least all those are strategies, or I should put air quotes around, at least all those are some kind of strategies, some kind of tactic. The worst advice that I hear given and that drives me crazy is, well, if you won’t do any of these ways, if you won’t ask and compensate and be promoted and gimmicky and network to know what kind of people- if you won’t do those ways, then you just won’t get any referrals, or you will just have to get the sporadic ones that come in. And then they are left hoping. And hope is not a strategy that referrals will show up. That’s the one that drives me crazy, because that’s like telling 98% of the world, I know you don’t want to ask, it’s awkward, and you’re right. I know you don’t want to compensate because it’s bad. And you don’t do that. I know you don’t want to network to know what kind of people because you have a business to run. And I know you don’t want to be gimmicky and promotional. Because that’s not how you want your brand to be seen in the marketplace. But if you just won’t, you just don’t get. And it’s that advice that drives me bonkers, because it doesn’t pay attention to actually what is triggering referrals to happen from a scientific perspective. And then guess what? There is strategies that you can build around that to be able to naturally cultivate and generate more referrals and in a natural way. It just you are going to have to reframe your thinking when it comes to referrals.
Jenny Plant 19:46
I can see your passion coming through and it’s clear that you have done it yourself. You’ve obviously taught 1000s of people since and 10 years is a long time to be teaching this so you’ve obviously gone deep and as you say you’ve even extended the different ways and you’ve probably seen every trick in the book? So I’m sure you’ve got people sitting now on the edge of their seats saying, Well, tell me how to do it. So can you share with us as much as you can, before your paywall, of how people get started.
Stacey 20:19
First, let me just say thanks for recognising them as business. So there’s probably a paywall! you’d be surprised how many people are like, tell me all for free? And I’m like, do you work for free. But here is the thing, I also know your audience does need enough to understand that this is possible. So I do think it’s really important that we talk about what this looks like from a strategic perspective, and then what are the nuts and bolts behind some of the strategies. Now, I’m going to say this, and this is not to overwhelm you. But when I think about all the different things you can do to generate referrals, there are three big, what we call foundational strategies. And it’s where I tell everybody we will start with one of those three, if they choose to work with me, or if they don’t, it’s the drumbeat that I’m constantly beating. You have to pick one of these three foundational strategies, because that is going to give you the sustainability that you want. Layered on top of those three foundational strategies are actually 15 other situational, and next level strategies. So before I talk about what the three foundational strategies are, and how to get started with the one that’s right for you, I will say the 15 situational and next level strategies are things you are not getting the right quality of clients referred to you. So how do you have a conversation with a referral source that doesn’t make them defensive and stop referring you, that helps them understand who your ideal client is. There is actually a right way and a wrong way to have that conversation based on the science. Or maybe, I really would love to know how to plant some referral seeds, just in my social media posts. What does that look like? There’s a way to do that elegantly and professionally, versus a way that everybody sees through it and be like, Okay, moving on scroll past. More, let’s say you’re the business owner. And you’ve got a bunch of the referral source relationships, but you have an amazing team of account managers and would love for them to own some of these referral source relationships. So as the business owner, I’m not the only one owning it so how do you transfer the ownership of the relationship with a referral source to someone else on your team? That’s another, and it’s actually a next level strategy that we teach as well. So once you have some foundational strategies in place, then we really start paying attention to what’s going to make it better, and what’s going to make it easier, and what’s going to streamline things and what are things you probably didn’t think about. So a lot of our situational, and next level strategies focus specifically on referral sources, like the quality conversation, specifically on prospects while they’re in the buyers journey. So we think of having them thinking about referrals without even knowing it, because we never say, and you’re going to refer me someday, and that is bad. We never say that. But some of these are focused on the prospect and the buyers journey. And some of them are just much more in line with other business development strategies. But you don’t ever dive into any of those. Even though that’s probably painting some people like wait, I want to go with the one you just said about quality. Where we start though, is we start with one of our three foundational strategies. your business’s lowest hanging fruit right now are the people who are currently or have recently referred you. And if you can identify if you have any existing referral sources, that is where I would tell you to start, hands down, because people who have shown that they will refer you in the past, or they’re referring you now with the right strategy to take care of them. And I don’t just mean you send them a newsletter, or you send a text message every 30 days, or, Hey, what’s up, how you doing? That’s not what I’m talking about, but when you take care of them in the right way, and a memorable and meaningful way, and you use the right language, it’s almost like subconsciously planting referral seeds, that’s when you see them start seeing more opportunities to refer to you. So when I talk about and when folks enter into my world, they see me talk about this a lot. When I talk about, yes, I have a framework, and I can double, triple or quadruple your referrals depending on where you’re starting from in one year. It is typically with this strategy – not always some people need to strategies to get there. But this strategy is the, hey, you have referrals, now let’s grow it. Let’s look at our existing referral sources, identify them create the right plan to take care of them, and do it with the right cadence, which means five, six, maybe seven times in a year, not daily, weekly or monthly. Let’s take care of them in the right way, use the right language, and then we’ll start to see more referrals come in and that way, that’s the first foundational strategy. It’s called growth by referrals. If you’re growing because you’re already getting referrals, we’re just going to get you more. But some people can be sitting here listening and saying You know what, I’ve had my agency for a year or two and the truth is, I don’t know if we have any referral sources. If we do, we don’t have that many, or where some people who’ve been in business 10 years are like, Well, we haven’t ever focused on referrals. So we don’t really have any referral sources. Well, then you have to start with what we call the potential referral source strategy, and that’s identifying those clients and contacts you want to refer you. And then there’s a strategy we teach about how do you take someone who’s never referred you? And you cannot ask them to refer you. So how do you get them to start referring you, there’s actually is a strategy and we teach that methodology as well. And so I always tell folks, you’re going to start with one of those two foundational strategies, you’ve got referral sources, great, let’s take the right care of them with the right language to get more referrals from them. Or let’s identify people to start referring you and start cultivating those relationships. So they’ll become a new referral source and start referring you. And then the third strategy any business can use, I don’t usually have them start there, because I can get faster traction with the first two strategies. But the third foundational strategy, is your client experience, you need to actually be referral? Like my disclaimer, when I teach people, my first two strategies is I’m assuming your referral. And so you actually have to have a client experience and most people think we did great work we are referable. That is not what it means to be referable. Referable is not great work. Yes, you have to do great work, but it is so much more than that to be referable. And so we teach the referral client experience as well, because we found that sometimes people just can’t get more referrals. And then I have done this in the past with some clients, say alright, let’s pretend I’m a client put me through the paces. And halfway through, it’s, timeout, this is terrible. I don’t actually say it like that. I may think that, but I don’t actually say that. But it’s, no, no, no, you’re not actually doing things that are making me want to refer you. I’m not guaranteeing you that every client will refer you, but let’s at least put the odds in our favour that we’re giving them the right experience, that they will refer us so that when we start putting all the other strategies in place, we’ve got a well oiled engine here, we call it in our world, the programme that we have, where we talk about all 18 of these strategies and all this stuff, and you get to work with me, It’s called Building a Referral Business. And that’s the name of the programme. But that’s actually what we’re doing. We are looking at your business, and we are making sure whether it’s just you or you and ten people, we are making sure that you are building a business that is just not missing any opportunities, and then building processes and procedures behind them to generate those referrals.
Jenny Plant 27:28
Wow. So all of your experience over the last 10 years with doubling down on referral strategies. And then you’ve got this third arm, which is okay, so let’s make a referral. And let’s look at your client experience. And that’s where your old business consulting from your early career comes into play, doesn’t it? Because you’re actually helping them with their business as well.
Stacey 27:50
Yeah, and you know, it’s funny, I don’t get into the details, like you should use this software over this software, or you should use Basecamp over Asana to manage it, I don’t get into the work details from that perspective, what I really focus on with the referral client experiences, is you need to have the work product- Excellent, right, you need to have valuable work product, and you need to have a really streamlined process that the client feels working with you. You can’t have a choppy client experience. And so from that perspective, there’s pieces to that, but where I really hone in on the referable client experience is actually on the other side.
So it’s not just the work that you deliver, that makes you referable it’s actually the relationships that you build through the process. And that doesn’t mean taking your clients for a beer. Sometimes it’s the simple note that you send to a client when they’ve come on board as a new client. And it’s not that simple. We’re so glad you’re a client, everybody sends that note? Well, those that send them, I’m talking about taking a moment to really think about when your client decides to say yes, and signs on the dotted line to working with you, what’s it actually going to be like? And what are they thinking, and let’s make sure we know that we know what they’re thinking, we’re inside their thoughts too. And we are prepared to walk them through this journey. And so that’s the thing that I see people missing.
And yes there are definitely moments in the client experience where you should be planting referral seeds, and that every client receives that and you see who does that work with to start generating referrals. But everything’s done in a way that comes back to this idea that referrals come from relationships, and you have to be willing to invest in them. Not taking everybody to get a beer every month. but you have to be willing to invest in them. If you want to see referrals happen.
Jenny Plant 29:33
You keep referring to the science behind it. Can you share with us a little bit more about that?
Stacey 29:38
Yeah, so at a high level, there’s three big things. I want you to know about it when it comes to how referrals happen. So I talked about the science in two ways. There’s the science that’s happening when a referral is happening, there’s the piece of what’s happening when this referral is being given? there’s the science there. And then there’s parts of that we use that build out how we teach someone to build their strategies is based on science as well. So when someone’s learning how to build out their referral plan, we’re baking into how we’re teaching them to do that, how the science works as well. So it shows up in two ways. It’s like how we teach it. But it’s also how we explain what’s happening. So if you think about it at a very basic level, when a referral is being given, most of the time, 99.9% of the time, people think when they receive a referral, it’s about them. When you think I woke up this morning to an email, from an awesome client that’s in my building a referral built business programme, Adam, referred me to another client, he at least once a month, he’s referring me to somebody, I woke up to that email this morning. Now, normally, people would think, Oh, my gosh, Adam loves me and is helping me build my business and thinks the world of me and he probably does think all those things. I mean, he wouldn’t refer me if he didn’t. But that’s not what Adam was thinking about. When he referred me this morning. What he was thinking about was that his friend had a conversation with him about needing more referrals. And Adam was like, oh, yeah, I can be the hero here. I know exactly what connects you two. I’m going to connect you to Stacey. Now. Why did that friend even know that Adam worked with somebody on referrals? Well, because I have a referral client experience. So Adam is talking about me from time to time, and so that person heard that and it’s I need that. Adam, can you help me?
In the moment that Adam referred me, it wasn’t about me, yes, I get a new client. And that’s amazing. But it wasn’t about Adam referring me it was about Adam being the hero for somebody who had a problem, and he was going to help them solve it. That’s how the brain works. When it comes to referrals. It’s called the triggering of the happiness trifecta. You know, it’s like the dopamine and all the chemicals in the brain, there’s three of them that fire off when you do something that makes you feel good, and helping somebody is at the centre of that. So the truth is, it feels good to refer, but it doesn’t feel good in the way that you think it does.
Are they growing your business? No, no, they’re helping someone. The next piece of the science is the psychology of trust. And that is just everybody gets that one. Like there’s books written about it – Speed of Trust, the trust factor, though, isn’t that Adam knows that I will do amazing work for his friend, he knows that. I mean, ultimately, he knows that whether he was a client or not, he would know that I would do great work. That’s not actually where the trust comes from. Where the trust comes from is because we have an ongoing relationship, whether he was a client or just a centre of influence for me and never been a client, because I maintain a relationship with my referral sources. So that trust continues to be fostered. Most people think, well, they’ve got to know how I do my business and how we take care of clients and how we’re different. And again, what is our Blue Ocean Strategy different from everybody else? actually, no. Do I like you? then I’m going to assume you do good work. Because we have a relationship, it’s the foundation of that trust. Yes, you can’t actually do bad work. I mean, let me just get, I just feel like I need to put disclaimer in here real fast. You can’t actually do bad work and have people continue to refer you it will come back to bite you in the rear. But the idea is that the trust in me – Yes, I know, you do great work, but then we continue to maintain a relationship because I’m doing it. That the trust continues to grow, because we’re connected. And that’s how the psychology of trust comes into play. And then the third piece of that is behavioural economics and understanding how social networks and the science behind social networks actually work within your business and within the relationships that you have. And the surprise and delight factor behind behavioural economics. So that’s the three pieces. It’s your brain with the happiness trifecta, the psychology of trust, and then social networks and behavioural economics. And those pieces together are actually when you peel back the layers of why are referrals happening, why that referral is actually happening and why you’re receiving it.
Jenny Plant 33:59
Wow, fantastic. I think a lot of people listening. First of all, they’re making a note of anyone that’s ever referred them thinking, I haven’t spoken to them for a year I had better make a call. But this is super interesting, because you’re right, Adam, is the hero and he wants to feel like the hero and he’s made, he’s feeling like the hero route to refine you. So it’s not about you. Love that. So tell us as you’ve obviously worked with 1000s and 1000s of people who have you seen have made the biggest difference to their business when they’ve implemented a thorough approach. That’s all scientifically backed to referrals?
Stacey 34:37
So you know, you use the most important word ever, and that is implemented. There are lots of people who can learn this. And there are lots of people who can attempt I’m going to try this little piece or that little piece or I’ll get as far as this and then I’ll get buried in my other 30,000 things I got to do on my to do list, but the people that I see have the big biggest success, they do have a few things in common Number one, they will implement, maybe not right away, and maybe not as fast as I want them to but ultimately they will tend to implement because that means they trust the process. I always tell folks, when you’re going to start learning from somebody new, it’s like you’re listening to the new guru, you’re listening to the new expert, you’re deciding, Hey, do I want to learn from this person? You have to fundamentally understand what they stand for and what their philosophy is. Because the tactics they teach you that you’re going to then have to do and hopefully not be uncomfortable, but comfortable doing all comes from their philosophy. So I spend a lot of time educating people on my philosophy, because I’ll have people who come into my programme, and I’m still waiting for the moment when you say, gotcha, and then you teach me how to ask for referrals. And I’m, like, never going to happen, not who I am, like, it’s never going to happen, my mother would beat me senseless. And I did a gotcha plan. And so, you know, the reality of it is that you really do have to understand that this is a process you have to trust, and you have to implement, which means you have to do the work. The other thing that I see is this is not personality driven, introvert extrovert? I mean, you do kind of need to at least like people, I mean, if you hate people, that’s probably not going to work for you. But that doesn’t mean you have to want to hang out with them all the time, either. I have lots of people whose referral sources are not local. So there’s never any- we’re going to grab coffee moments. And I think it’s a value if your referral sources are local, and you can, but lots of people like me, when I work with business owners, and 12 different countries all around the world, and a lot of them refer me, I will never meet the majority of my referral sources. And so you can still cultivate that relationship, even when you’re not local. But the reality of it is though it’s not personality driven, like introvert extrovert you’re high on the disk or whatever, or you’re whatever it is on the Enneagram that loves people or whatever. It’s not that as much as it is you actually care, you actually have a gratitude mentality and believe that it is your responsibility to take care of the people who take care of your business. And that doesn’t mean with dollars, it doesn’t mean with lavish gifts. And it doesn’t mean that you have to have the biggest client appreciation slash referral source of every year and spend $10,000. But at the hardest part of it all, at the end of the day, these people send you business and they put their reputation on the line when they do it. And you believe you should be doing something that makes sure they know it. And I think there is a fundamental piece of your character that is built into that because you’re going to have to make time for it. So this is how I see, I’m thinking of Katherine, one client, who, averaged, 12 referrals in a year before working with me in our first year. Because what I always do, I don’t ever guarantee it, because I don’t always know how much work people will put into it. But my goal is to double, triple or quadruple your referrals in your first year. That’s fabulous. There’s your ROI. That’snot really what I care about, though. So let me explain it. So Katherine comes to me. And she’s got 12 referrals on average. So we get her to 40 and in her first year, so I don’t do math grade in my head. But I think that’s tripling it. Is that quadrupling it, anyways, it’s more than triple Okay, over triple. So we take her from 12 to 40. That’s fabulous. And Katherine could have stopped there. But that’s not what I’m about. I’m about No, no, these are sustainable strategies. And you better be using them in 10 years, when I talk to you in 10 years. So then Katherine goes from 40 referrals in her first year, the next year, she gets 50 New referrals, I think it was 52. Right, the next year, she gets 67 referrals, I think, and her second year, or third year, she goes from 40 to 52 to 67, then COVID hits in 2020. And she drops a little, she goes from 67, the year before to 62. So not much of a drop, or two, five less, we’ll take it! And then the next year she gets 82. I don’t know what is about twos in her. But so she’s 40 In one year to year five, she’s at 82. And now she’s like mellow down, she’s like, I really only need 70 Because then I can close the number I want to close. I know some of those won’t be the right fit. And I can work on that as well. But that’s more than I need. And it is just her number is dependent on her business. And so your number is dependent on your business. But that’s ultimately what I’m looking for. It’s the person who’s like, yeah, I want to have a great first year. And yes, I’d like to pay for my investment, the ROI, Stacey, but then I’m going to sustain this. And this is how I’m going to build my business year after year after year.
Jenny Plant 39:24
I mean, just from looking at what agencies typically do, which is prospecting and pitching for business and etc., etc. It’s so expensive. It’s so time consuming. Actually what you’re saying makes absolute financial sense. Given that a referring source – Is it 30% higher likelihood of conversion? I don’t know. But there’s some, much like you said at the beginning, it’s much more likely that someone that’s been referred to you is going to convert so much easier. So I mean, it makes very, very logical financial sense as well. You’ve said so many things that I think a lot of people are probably leaning forward thinking, Oh, my goodness, you know, this makes so much sense. And, you know, even when I think about myself, and I think about just people that have referred me, am I caring enough? have I taken enough time? but I feel a bit bad about that I am a caring person. But when was the last time I spoke to that person that very kindly introduced me to someone so nurturing. And that was a question about Katherine, let’s take Katherine, for example. How much time does she invest in your strategies in order to get those types of results?
Stacey 40:39
Yeah, so we track this, because I know if it takes you a tonne of time, you won’t do it. So it’s really important that I say, Okay, what does it really look like to get from 12 to 40 and in a year? And first, it is dictated by how many strategies do you have to deploy. So I’m going to give times estimated, time ranges that you should expect to spend, after you’ve learned. So this isn’t the time it’s going to take to learn the strategies and build it and implement it in your business. This is okay, it’s implemented. Now, how often am I having to do something with it. And typically, if you’re deploying our first or two foundational strategies, though, you have existing referral sources, and you want to get more referrals from them, and you need to cultivate some new referral sources as well. Typically, I tell folks, we’re going to average around two to three hours in a month, because you need new referral sources, and that takes more time. But I have some who are like, no, I got 25, people referring me, if I could just consistently get a great referral from all of them or two referrals, I’m good, I don’t need any more. And then I’m well, then you’re probably looking much closer to probably less than 20 hours in a year. And that’s broken down, not necessarily monthly, because you don’t do something every month, because that’s called being a stalker, you are going to do something five, or six, maybe seven times a year, and sometimes things are going be really easy to do and sometimes you’re going to invest some time. We teach a variety of ways that we do outreach to our referral sources, you have to build the right variety for yourself. But it’s really 20 to 24 hours in a year. I’m thinking everybody has that type of time. But that does come after you’ve learned it all. And the cool thing about when I teach folks my strategies, you can knock out a strategy in four hours if you sit down and just start to finish and do it and build it and stuff. Four to six hours, you should knock it out. So it’s not like these things are hard to learn. But you do have to be willing to take the time.
Jenny Plant 42:26
I think what you said earlier about implementation is so so true. I mean, as a trainer myself, I know that my system, my strategies work, but they don’t work in and of themselves, you know, people have to take action. And I don’t know about you, Stacey, but I actually have to meet people before they come on my programme, just as a kind of, Can I can I sense that this person is an action taker. It’s not always bulletproof, but I have to meet someone because it’s my reputation. I want people to get results, and I can see that you feel the same,
Stacey 43:04
Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, the truth is, sometimes they surprise me. And I’m like, wow, I really thought they would do more. And sometimes, I had this one client that I brought on board a couple years ago, and she averaged 40 referrals in a year. And our goal was eight, we always set a goal I always know what we are aiming for in your first year. And I was like, okay, 40 is a great number. Let’s double it, let’s get you 80. And she was like, That would be amazing. And then she went to town. She extended some of the strategies, figured out how she wanted to implement them in a different way and she was sometimes teaching me and I was like, this is incredible. 312 referrals and our first year, wow, in her second year 302. So, from my perspective, I know what the process will do, if you’ll trust it, and then do it. But I also know you can take it to the nth degree as well and surprise, even me with the results that you can have. But the truth is not everybody is going to take action. And so you know, I always tell folks, particularly when people join my group coaching programme, I’m here, you get access to me, every single week, I am answering your questions. I’m critiquing your work, I am here. But I am not your mama. And I am not going to make you show up. And I am not going to make you get the ROI of this investment if you’re not going to do the work. Because the truth is there is some work to do- or send a team member. I have lots of people that the business owner who invested in the programme is not the person who shows up every week, they’ve sent the team member who’s learning this and implementing it for the company. I don’t care who comes. I just want somebody who’s there who has been told make this happen, and then they’re on board with making it happen.
Jenny Plant 44:39
Maybe I’ll have to be a bit normal, more strict like you are, then if you’re not going to take action, don’t come and listen. I think there’s going to be a lot of agency owners, also account managers who are responsible for that day to day relationship who are super interested in what you’re talking about. I think a lot of this makes total sense. You obviously know your stuff, you’ve been doing it for so long. So do you have any final pieces of advice for anyone listening? That’s, sitting on the fence thinking, is this going to be a lot of hard work? Maybe I’m happy with what I’m already doing with my prospecting. Anything that you can give and maybe that comes up all the time, because obviously you’ve done so many podcast episodes, what can you advise?
Stacey 45:24
You know, the number one thing I always tell folks is, is there is a moment when you’re going to decide if you want to get serious about referrals or not. And typically, that moment will come if you sit down, and you figure out who are your existing or your current referral sources right now. And I have loads of free information, it’s in my book, there’s a whole chapter – chapter eight – in my book, Generating Business Referrals Without Asking, that tells you and walks you through how to identify your referral sources, your existing referral sources, they’re on my freebie page on my website; staceybrownrandall.com/freebie – there’s a spreadsheet you can download that’ll walk you through how to identify your existing referral sources. I have training where I walk you through, me on the video walking you through how to do it. I believe so firmly in, it’s not that you have to take action after you figured out who your referral sources are, it’s that you’re going to be empowered in the moment to decide if you want to take action, when you know who your referral sources are, not based on your gut, and not based on anecdotal evidence, and not based on what happened the last three numbers, or the last three months, which is the only thing you can remember. But actually what’s happened over the last year,or two or three years, in terms of who’s referred to your agency. When you see those names, in black and white, you’ll just know. Yeah, I want to take better care of them. Yes, I feel like that’s something I’m supposed to do or task somebody on my team to do. I want to know how to do that. Well, then I’m here. But at the end of the day, you have to decide who are those people? Once you know who they are, then you can decide if you’re actually going to do anything with them.
Jenny Plant 46:59
Lovely, very good advice. Stacey, we obviously will put that link to your website on the show notes. Is that the best way to contact you if there’s anyone that wants to contact you for more information? Is that the best place to go?
Stacey 47:14
Yeah, I mean, the website, the home base for everything, and the programmes we offer, how to work with me, all that stuff is definitely there. There’s also a contact page, where you can definitely just send me a note and then we can connect as well. And then I’m on , well I’m on too many many social media channels. So there’s always a way to find me.
Jenny Plant 47:32
Great. Well, we will put as many as we find in so that they can stalk you, wherever. Stacey it’s amazing, and I love the sound of what you’re doing. And I’ve already downloaded a couple of your free resources and they’ve been amazing. You give away a lot of free information on your podcast as well. So thank you so much for joining us and thank you for sharing so much info.
Stacey 47:54
Oh, Jenny. Thanks for having me. It was a pleasure.
