Welcome to Episode 83. On this episode, we’re talking about the split between the agency Account Manager and the agency Project Manager role, with Kate Vines and Kio Aghoghogbe from Hallam.
This is going to be particularly interesting for you if you’re working in an agency with a hybrid account management role, you’re doing both sides of the role currently, you might also be an agency owner who’s looking at splitting the roles out and not really sure exactly how each function is going to work together.
Kate and Kio from Hallam are brilliant at breaking down what they do. We talk about:
– how the roles and the skill sets are different
– how they work together on projects and retainers
– how they manage the client relationship
– what friction points can occur and how they overcome them
– their advice for agencies thinking of moving to an AM/PM model.
As Kio says, the pure account management role is very much about understanding the client’s business and market, looking proactively at how the agency can bring more value and having those client improvement conversations. And if that’s something that you’d like to improve your skills in, you can go to my website, https://www.accountmanagementskills.com and book a quick call with me to see if training might be the right fit for you are a member of your team.
Transcript:
Jenny Plant 00:03
Today I am absolutely delighted to introduce Kate Vines and Kiorthe Aghoghogbe from award winning strategic digital marketing agency Hallam. Now Hallam, if you do not know already, was voted Google best digital agency in 2019, and is the only agency to be recognised by the Drum Magazine as the most recommended agency the in the UK three times in a row. The way they do that is based entirely on clients feedback and results, so that is quite an accolade to have. Kate is Project Delivery Manager and Kio is Senior Digital Account Manager. I have invited them on the show today to talk about the role of Account Manager and Project Manager, it is a topic that keeps coming up time and time again and how they work together in an agency. So a very warm welcome Kate and Kio. So listen, can we start off by introducing yourselves separately, I just want to know how long you have been at Hallam, your role at Hallam and actually what you did before you got to Hallam. And I am particularly interested to see if either of you have had a hybrid role before. So Kate, could we start with you?
Kate Vines 00:59
Thank you.
Kio Aghoghogbe 01:00
Glad to be here.
Kate Vines 01:24
Yes, certainly. So I’m Kate Vines, pronouns she her. I’m currently a project manager at Hallam. I’ve been here around two years coming up to two years in the summer. Now Hallam was actually my first digital agency and my first pure PM role. So previously, I have worn many hats. Roles that I have had before arriving at Hallam, I started life as an in house designer, creatively then went on to do studio management. That’s where I found my niche in telling people what to do and then my moving to the agency world was when I was studio managing a video and animation agency and that really was a fairly hybrid role that I was working there. Small agency, big clients and my responsibilities were doing bit of scheduling, traffic management, project management, and quite light touch account management, but I was quite client facing on a lot of projects that were coming through the studio. I feel once I stumbled across project management, I’m a very organised person. I like structure, I like discipline, and it felt like a natural fit and that was the side of things that I particularly enjoyed. So whilst I do enjoy the schmoozing and the account management side of things to some extent, my strengths, I feel, are a bit more behind the scenes and a bit more in working internally with the team and getting things done and then analysing budgets and schedules. That is the stuff that I enjoy, and I feel that I can bring to the role of Hallam. So now I sort of hand over to Kio.
Kio Aghoghogbe 03:08
Cheers. Thanks, Kate. Yes, I have been at Hallam now just over two years, or over two years. My background is very varied. I have worked in many different kinds of assets of account management, I mean the full spectrum, I have done roles, which have been very hybrid and touched a little bit on project delivery and account management. But Hallam is probably the first one that I had which solely allowed me just to focus on the more account growth account development and client building aspects of account management where before, it was very broad and very generalist. So both of them have very different skills and competencies. So it is nice, actually, to be able to be in a position where you can solely focus on what the client’s needs are and building those relationships, building that trust and understanding and being able to, obviously work towards their goals and show how the business can deliver upon that. So yes really, before Hallam, I worked in full service agencies, I worked in packaging, design, market research which are very different disciplines or within that kind of agency world. So before that, I had built up a brief understanding of what digital was, but this is the first time that I haven’t, that’s been purely kind of focused on the digital role. But I see myself as a Freddie Flintoff of the account management world, I have got a very broad skill set. I am good at on the ball and I like to do lots of very different things. So is nice to be able to be a specialist in digital account management and just focus on that now.
Jenny Plant 04:32
Lovely, you both look actually so energised, and to be doing something that you both feel that you have got a flow with. Kate as you described, “I just feel that I love organisation and I’m doing something that I finally feel”, and you actually use the word, relief Kio that it was” finally I can just do this”. I am just curious before I move on to the other questions. Let’s come to you Kio, because you described it as being relieved? or similar? What was in your previous roles? Because you’re both multifaceted, obviously, in your previous roles to being pure account manager, was there any moments where you felt like, it wasn’t your flow? And if so, what were those moments when you were expected to be the project manager as well as the account manager?
Kio Aghoghogbe 05:27
I mean, that’s it. Because, again, you are being asked to do two very distinct things, which are very different and almost individually, both of them take up so much time, requires so much attention and requires very different elements of view, that sometimes it is virtually impossible to manage the two of them and have that equilibrium and make them both work. So if you probably focus on delivery, then you need to be organised, you need to work to timelines, you need to coordinate internal teams, you need to manage budgets, you need to have status reports, and those things take a lot of time. If you are really fully focused in that, you can not then do the more strategic elements, looking at the bigger picture and having that time to meaningfully build account plans and growth plans and write proposals to focus on opportunities or to prepare quarterly business reviews, or the needs of the client. So that’s it. You can take from one meaning you are neglecting both of them, you can not give them both the due care and attention to the best of your abilities if you are having to have a generalist role and do both of those and expect them to be to a good standard, ultimately you can keep both of them afloat, but you are never really going to exceed and deliver on every one of them.
Jenny Plant 06:36
I think this is what has been proven with agencies that want to grow. It is that impossible task that the account manager has been also set. So I think listening to that, from an account managers point of view, if there’s listeners out there listening to you saying that, they’re probably standing up and cheering saying, yes, it is impossible. So, Kate, back to you, how would you describe the differences in the roles in your own words?
Kate Vines 07:03
So I would say
at Hallam, the differences are primarily that the project managers are responsible for making sure everything happens on time and on budget, that there are key pointers that we need to be focusing on. We are a little bit more behind the scenes on a lot of projects that – sorry – with retainers, we are a little bit more behind the scenes, on projects we are more client facing just because there is a lot more back and forth and a lot more PM involvement needed on those, web builds, for example, we need to know what’s going on at any given time. The AM role for me, I rely on the account manager to have an eye on the future. So they are looking in the future, at the relationship, the account growth potential, the sales, that is where their strengths lie, their strengths lie in building that relationship, making those connections and fundamentally making the sales that make us a profitable organisation.
My role is to have a little bit of an eye on the future, but from a much more logistical task planning, I want the cadence of the work to flow as planned. So I am looking in the future purely as I need to get this thing done by then. Whereas the account manager is looking at the much bigger picture, the strategy, all that kind of thing. I see the PM role as facilitating great work in whatever way we can and for me, that is making sure that everyone’s got the time, the space, the budget to do great work for their client. That way, I can leave all the other stuff to the account manager and that does include the difficult conversations. As a project manager, I report into an account manager, this is going wrong, this is happening, then it’s their job to choose how to handle that conversation, because there may well be conversations that I am not aware of that have been going on with the relationship or with a client. I do not want to go in with my size eights delivering news that is not great. Whereas an account manager has the full picture on the relationship and they can choose how to manage a certain situation and whether say, if it is something that’s going over budget, they can make the call on whether we just absorb it or whether the client needs to be informed and paying for things. So yes, account managers have an eye on the future relationship and project managers are in the zone of getting stuff done.
Jenny Plant 09:26
What a great explanation. Thank you so much. Quite interesting, the fact that you touched on difficult conversations and how that is managed internally, because presumably Kio your take on that if Kate brings you a problem is to say look, we have got a case of scope creep here or we have gone over budget with spend, then you make that shout or that call as to how to handle it, is that right?
Kio Aghoghogbe 09:51
Pretty much so I mean, it is my job to obviously make that decision and think about what is the best, not only the route for us, we look for both, first and foremost we need to think about the business and obviously protect Hallam, then their interest needs. Also, again, you have to find that nice balance for the client as well. So the decision rests in terms of being right, if we do X, what does that mean? Does this have severe implications for us or the client? So it is about using intuition based on what you know, the relationship and ultimately what you want to get out of it and it is just thinking what do we do best? And that means relying on the people around you and just making the best informed decision you can.
Jenny Plant 10:28
Yes, good point. You mentioned earlier on Kio, that your role specifically included things like looking at the bigger picture, coming up with the account plans, running QBRs, what else are you doing in your AM role?
Kio Aghoghogbe 10:42
Good question. I think Kate touched on a good point before, which adds another layer of complexity, as well, as the different types of clients or relationships that you have. So we have project based clients where you have to remove that client for a limited amount of time. So the ultimate goal is delivering what they paid and what they signed up for and then you have retained clients, which we work with them for a much longer period of time. So then you have much more, again, much more scope and allowance to grow and think about the future, and plan that partnership together. So really
what my job really is, again, is spending that time and investing my time into the client, understanding opportunities, understanding where they are going, and allowing myself just to be immersed in their business. So as you keep your eyes on the ground, is there anything that you’ve seen in the media that is pertinent to the client, or, spending some time doing some research or looking at insights, looking at competitor trends and things happening in the market, and thinking, right, this is great and something that client X would really love and something that they would enjoy. So forwarding those insights onto them, just to show them that you’re thinking about them, that you have got ears on the ground and you are looking at things that will benefit
and they can use in their role and also about their business, it’s using your time again, and also sharing insights with clients. We don’t do it enough, there is evidence where things might be working really well on a particular client and we don’t necessarily share, it is almost like sometimes there is that reluctance or scaredness that this is confidential, and I can’t say that. But there’s ways within which you can use these best practice and those practice methods, those wins and golden nuggets to benefit other clients because they like hearing that. You need to be a bit more bold or brave with that, because ultimately, that’s your job to use the best parts of what’s happening with other clients, for the ones that you’re working with and vice versa, if things are not going well. It is using or learning of ways in which you can improve that and driving improvements for those clients as well. So that common knowledge, using it in different contexts and different clients to make improvements and ultimately keep everyone happy and deliver.
Jenny Plant 12:41
I agree with you, I think part of the benefit of working with an agency from a client’s perspective is that you are working with other clients and you are at the cutting edge of what’s changing what’s happening, you are able to look at the patterns that are emerging, that new tech that’s being used. So I absolutely 100% agree with you. I am curious, because obviously that is the way you break down who works on what, it seems to be a specific case of if it is a short-term project, then the PM will be very heavily involved. If it is a retainer, the PM takes a slightly backward seat, organising everything in the background, while the account manager leads that relationship into the future. There will be agency owners listening, who perhaps would say, well, that wouldn’t suit my business, because we are only on project by project, we work with a client maybe for a few years, but they have not signed up to a retainer. They come to us with a specific project, maybe it’s a refresh of a campaign and then another one is to update their intranet system or do some positioning work. So just what are your thoughts on agency owners listening and thinking that perhaps it is not right for me to split out the roles because of that?
Kate Vines 14:06
I think that, obviously, when you’re working on shorter term projects with a start and finish date, never underestimate the potential for further work with those clients, even if it could be a year long project or whatever. The way we work at Hallam, the project manager on those projects is still very much to do with delivering the tasks within that scope. We will have an account manager assigned to projects and the way we work at Hallam is that I would be chatting to the account manager and say, well, this has just popped up in a conversation and I don’t think they’re fully set up in x y z and maybe we should have a chat with them about that thing. Then it’s over to them because, cards on the table, I am not a salesperson, I don’t have great selling skills. I can spot opportunities. Then I will feed into the account manager or sales and say can you pick up this conversation with the client and just go dig a bit deeper as to what they have in place at the moment what they might need. I mean, the dream is that you then end up getting them on retainer for another piece of work, but you still need someone looking after the relationship whilst the project manager is focusing on delivering the project within the timescale that’s needed. Because if we get bogged down in the relationship, then there is a danger that the project might drift and actually, what they are paying you for is the project. So I think there is definitely a need for both, even if you are working on less retainer based work and again, the difficult conversations are all handled by the account manager in those situations. So anything that falls out of scope, the account manager can pick that up, which then means there is no compromise on the project, there is no delay to the project, because I can feed in and say, okay, they have asked for this, it is out of scope, can you do all the paperwork and the conversation and get the PO etc, I need to focus on making sure that the work is still happening in the background. So I think there’s a definite need for both, even on those kinds of projects.
Jenny Plant 16:06
I do 100%, agree with you, I was asking, because I wanted to hear it from someone else. But I have had account managers come on my course who are on project by project with the majority of their clients and absolutely, you can still look for opportunities and that was a really good point that you made that the PM, even though they might not be there looking for cross-sell or upsell opportunities and ways to add value to the client, you are spotting opportunities through the conversations that are being had so absolutely 100% agree with you. So can you talk me through both of you, can you paint a picture of the moment you get the client, like the sales team, maybe, have just closed the sale, Kio I would love to know, from your perspective, how soon did they introduce you to the client relationship? Are you involved in that final pitch stage so that you can build that rapport? From the moment you get the client? Talk me through both of you each step of a process. Let’s take the retainer relationship, for example, who does what, how do you divide the tasks?
Kio Aghoghogbe 17:14
I think you made a good point there. As early as possible is the best time to be involved with the new clients, even if it is behind the scenes, it is understanding that and being immersed as quickly as possible. So when it is time to step off, you already know about them, you can then introduce yourself and almost have that instinctive connection, because you have taken the time to understand what has been sold, in what you are delivering, and then allow positions for someone that already understands that and is the right person, take them forward. So yes, once that pitch has been done, and the sales team are then waiting to hear feedback that is when I get the notification that we are at the final pitch stage, this could be an opportunity that could land and you have been earmarked as the person as the account manager to be on that account. So that is the time that I start to come on board and from that moment that it does get signed off, and we get the notification that we have won that business. That is the time when the account management period starts, because you have won that business, you are in that period where the clients happy and they have given you assurance that you are the right person to take them forward. So from that moment onwards, you are being judged, it is almost like that is when they start to expect to receiving. So that is when you need too, as firstly and foremostly you are the most vulnerable. It’s all about assuring them, reassuring them and giving them the confidence that they have made that right decision. That is when this first part of the process starts it is that onboarding. So it’s then if he wasn’t part of the pitch team, and you’re now being the person that’s been tasked with managing that, and part of the delivery team, then it’s just getting a good brief understanding what has been sold, and what is the clients expecting and what ultimately are the goals that you are working towards. So that, as I am doing the preparation, make sure everyone’s briefed, everyone understands that, you then have that initial kickoff call with a client. So it’s understanding this is what we are going to deliver for you. This is what the next 3, 6, 9 or 12 months looks like. This is how we are going to communicate this is all the things that you are going to expect from the agency that you just signed up with. And it is very important to do that, because then you build that strong foundation, you both have that accountability, you understand what exactly is going to come from this point onwards. So that there is not going to be any ambiguity they know how to call you when to call you when to expect meetings, when to expect reports. It is just that important process of having that peace of mind and knowing what to expect and building that instinctive connection with that agency and having that roadmap to work towards
Jenny Plant 19:40
Love that. Just one quick question on that kickoff call. Is the sales team involved in that meeting? Or have they already sort of disappeared and pass the baton over to you?
Kio Aghoghogbe 19:50
Yes, I mean, that’s it. So the sales team will always make a little introduction, and again, make absolutely clear that if there is not, usually with the pitch stage you have told the client the likelihood of this is what is going to be your delivery team. So the people that are pitching it might not necessarily be the people that are for the long term, you know, the members of that team. So there should not really be anything new or anything unexpected and you should not be selling that the client’s dreams and hopes are not going to be materialised. They should really expect that and you know, maybe after and that is it. Just making sure that people understand that and assuring them again, everything that’s been mentioned on that page, we have read it, even though we were not people that were physically there with you in the room, we know exactly what has been said. Usually we record most pitch sessions, if they’ve been done online as well. So it is a chance for us to watch them over and again, not necessarily look at things cold and pitch that because understanding how it was contextualised and discussed in conversation during that pitch moment. So all the things that you might not necessarily get from what is on the slides on face value, you understand the conversations and what has been said between the agency and the client. So you have got that full picture and understanding.
Jenny Plant 20:58
Great tip right there. Thank you Kio and Kate, talk me through your role from the kickoff call.
Kate Vines 21:07
It is very similar to Kio, except it will be weighted in different ways, depending on whether it’s a project or retainer. But fundamentally, for a project manager on that client kickoff call, we will have had an internal sales handover beforehand. So sales will have fed into us like Kio said, but when it is the client kickoff call, it is so important that the client understands what each of us are there for, that they are not sat there thinking I’m paying two people here why? They need to understand what we are bringing, what we are protecting what we are looking after for them, what we are taking ownership of. Who they need to contact – for a project, it will be right, your project manager is the person for your day to day contact, that is the person you need to go to first. On a retainer it is more likely to be the account manager. So the client needs absolute clarity on who to go to for what. Then the key thing from those client kickoffs is for us to dig a bit deeper if there are any gaps that we’re not sure of. So we have had the sales handout or we have done some research, it is getting absolute clarity that you are all on the same page, and clients do not mind going over things that they have covered in a pitch, if it is done in the right way and was like, can we just confirm that this is your priority, and these are the timelines that we are working to. I know, you have discussed this on the pitch, but I just want to make sure that you understand x y z. and also trying to nail down the reality. So yes, something might have been sold in with a particular timescale, it’s then my job to manage expectations and say, you know, we can deliver it in a 12 week period, but we need… or we will have to find out from you whether you are on holiday for three months, and then I will confirm the timeline. So it is all about managing expectations, ways of working, clarity for the client as to who is doing what. Then, after the client kickoff call, we will have an internal kickoff call and that’s really when we start to talk about who’s doing what, what responsibilities we are going to take on as from an AM / PM perspective. On a project, it will often be, I’ve got this, I’ll come to you account manager as and when I need you. On a retainer, it could be things like, Kate, can you set up internal squad syncs every week, can you set up client by weeklies, or sometimes the account manager likes to do that so they have got ownership of that and that can happen, it varies on account to account with me and it is what the account manager is happiest owning and what they want me to back them up with and support with.
Jenny Plant 23:53
Love that this is so useful. Thank you so much. Just curious. How do you explain to the client and justify your roles? Just give us your usual sort of patter of what you say, and how you differentiate them in front of the client? How do they not then come back and say, Oh, hang on a minute, but I’m paying for all this, you know..
Kate Vines 24:16
I think because we are able to, one of them is very much more weighted than the other on projects versus retainers. So I think what is quite useful for the client is they are not paying for two big people. They are paying for an account manager with a bit of project management support, or they’re paying for a project manager with a bit of account management support. I will cover the project side of things and then I’ll hand over to Kio to explain a bit more on retainers. about how that works. But on projects, it will be very much me saying I’m going to make sure your work gets delivered. I’m going to monitor the budget. I’m going to get back to you. I’m going to unblock anything that’s blocked. I’m going to keep you in the loop, status updates every week and the account manager, they are here to look after your relationship, if you have any concerns, anything that you want to talk about, that’s the person you need to speak to. If there is anything you want to talk to them about, say future work, that’s the person you need to speak to. You just divvy it up so that the account manager is protecting – protecting the brief, they are the go between sales and the actual project in some sense. So they are protecting that side of things and I am protecting the actual tasks getting done. So that’s how we do it on projects. Kio is slightly different on retainers, but just a flipped reverse a little bit really, isn’t it?
Kio Aghoghogbe 25:41
Yes, pretty much so and you made a good point there Kate. Again,
clients need to understand that they are not paying for it in AM / PM, it’s the paying for client services and it is our job to ensure they get the best client service experience and that is why they have been assigned two people to help with that fundamental goal of giving them a good client experience. And it is almost – I’ll use the analogy, if you pay for a builder to build a front porch, should it really matter if he brings three people to that job or one person to that job, ultimately your porch is going to get delivered to the highest standard, to the spec, to the cost that you agreed and that is it, he is going to make that job efficient and give you the best and make the best end product based on the team that he has got available to him. That is the way client should see it, that we are both here to ultimately deliver what you need and to make sure your experienced at Hallam is the best possible. So we have both got different roles to ensure that happens.
Jenny Plant 26:33
Love that and great analogy. So let’s just talk about project, where Kate, you are very much in the driving seat. If you know that the project is going on, Kio is in the background as the point person for the relationship, any issues, any further work you want to talk about. How then can Kio, with that project client be proactive with spotting growth opportunities? Or is it your job Kate, to feed back to Kio – hey, by the way. Because Kio would you put in the effort to look at the client, as from the things you said previously, the market, the competitors. Are we assuming here, because presumably, clients come in different shapes and sizes, their initial projects might be small, but the client itself might be vast, they might have multiple offices, multiple divisions, blah, blah, blah. So there could be a great opportunity. So how can you insert yourself Kio when Kate is in the driving seat?
Kio Aghoghogbe 27:36
You make a very good point and this just comes down to the relationship that we have as AM and PM, it is almost normal, it is not as linear as what we say. So there are instances where Kate is more on the ground, she is in those meetings, she has those chats with the client and she might spot something there. Then areas like sort of thinking, you know, this could be an opportunity or something, or there is a problem out there that they need solving. That is when we will talk to each other and she might ask me, look, the client has specified a need for this, or this is something which they want, what are your thoughts on it, and then I can then talk to Kate and say, right, what I would do is x y z or this could be an opportunity, what I would then do is talk to them about this and it is then, at that point, Kate might bring me in and we have that conversation or again, it is something that she has got a really good relationship with that client, they have got that report, they have really got that bond and the client trusts her, then likewise, we can arm her with the tools to have that conversation. So it is just about ensuring that the final goal is the same. It is just about how you get there, and who delivers it is sometimes what might differ. But ultimately, again, sometimes the dynamics will have to involve much more than what they are on, their limitations and you know and the linear of account manager or project manager.
Jenny Plant 28:45
I think this is what I’m saying, sorry, go on Kate.
Kate Vines 28:48
It is also worth noting that at Hallam, a lot of our work will start off with a research piece, a discovery piece or a strategy piece before we start doing the actual thing. So that is such a valuable period of time. So you have got our strategy team, interviewing, researching or the experience team user testing and that is when you find those little trinkets, those little opportunities that start to emerge. At Hallam, because we will all be on – we call it squad. So the team that is working on that project will have regular updates and regular catch ups and it is those catch ups where some one will say, “so this this popped up in an interview,” and then it is over to the account manager to have that conversation with the client and see if there’s an opportunity there, or it might be something that they already covered with someone else somewhere else but it is a much bigger picture than just client services on those kinds of things. It is also using the team that are hands on delivering the work because they are also able to spot gaps, holes and opportunities, so the whole shebang.
Jenny Plant 30:03
What tools do you use to keep in contact with each other because this has got to be fluid, hasn’t it? Can you recommend any ways of keeping each other up to date?
Kate Vines 30:12
Primarily, we use Slack, just because we are a hybrid remote first agency, so we have people working all over the world. So Slack is a great way, we will have a channel per client, we have a client channel and the squad channel, an internal channel. So that is a way of communicating so that everybody can see the conversation. It’s also very valuable to have regular catch ups, we have a client services catch up once a week and we will have internal calls to discuss the status of a project. Depending on how many accounts you have with one particular account manager and how complex they are, a weekly catch up with the account manager can be really valuable if it’s needed. There have been times when I have had three or four accounts with one account manager and we would have half an hour a week just to blitz through it and a bit of what is going on with that client and update from both sides. But that is not always necessary if it’s just one account and it is running itself or nice and straightforward, then normally just Slack comms are sufficient.
Jenny Plant 31:21
Right, and you get assigned – you are not in, let’s say, pods. So it is like business units? Do you have business units is that what you are? For example Kate, you have said a couple of times, I’m not always working with the same account manager. So presumably when the agency is assigning work, it could be whom ever is free rather than we are going to put it into this business unit where Kate works with Kio all the time, and they might have a subject matter expert, like a strategist. So they run a business unit. Am I right in thinking that it’s allocated on availability, suitability experience, etc?
Kio Aghoghogbe 32:04
Yes, certainly, it’s not just one thing like you said, you have explained it completely well, there isn’t much more to add to that. It is exactly that, it depends on the person’s experience. If it is a core competency that they have experience in, a brand project, then it makes sense to put them on it all be it subject to whatever capacity that they have, meaning that by the time the client lands it is down to a number of things rather than just being one thing.
Jenny Plant 32:27
And Kio, could we talk about, briefly, retainers, you mentioned quarterly business reviews? Can you spend a couple of minutes just talking about how you run a QBR? What value does the client see in the QBR? Because I think that’d be interesting to talk about.
Kio Aghoghogbe 32:44
Yes, QBR’s are great, we have them every three months and the result of that is to spend a day with the clients, we always encourage clients to come up to our office or we go to their office to do them and you have that face to face time because it’s good just to have that personal connection, you have that face to face and be amongst them, whether at our office or their office, because it builds so much more for the leadership, then again, doing these things online or through Team Meets or through Zoom sessions. That is one thing we always encourage, but ultimately, you want to spend that one day to almost stop, pause, reflect on the previous few months, what worked really well, what didn’t go so well? What did you set out to do? Because it’s always objective, you always have that focus on what are we going to deliver in the next three months, so it’s a time to reflect on that. Did you achieve what you want to achieve? If not, why didn’t you achieve that? So there retro and kind of looking back on the past three months is very important. There’s also that time to then spend the session and the meaning of the day thinking forward and that’s the emphasis that we like to do most. That future thinking. What are the clients objectives? Are we still working towards them? What changed last few months? Have you had a new marketing product or a new product launch? Or a new service? Is that more pertinent to you now? Do we need to change our approach to adapt to that? How is your market doing? Because it could be an instance where your markets booming and you find or the client finds future opportunities, one they never understood or never expected to get before. So how can we pivot time and focus into that deliver them because that is what is going to get the best reward. It is a really good area of opportunity and so yes, we spend the time to really strategizing and bring the strategy team on board, all the team gets together. When you look at the bigger picture, wider market, we look at insights to do some competitive benchmarking, with a look at opportunities and brainstorm ideas and it is a great chance for the internal teams to come together to really talk about their experiences and how their service areas doing we can easily help the client and really get those ideas together. It just allows that client just that one day, every three months to think about how business is doing. Maybe you look at things that are not getting spotted and just stop reacting and doing the day to day and just think about the bigger picture and have some time at the agency to talk and bounce ideas off each other. Love that. So it tends to be a full day does it where you can visit in person? Yes, definitely, it all depends on the client size, the client budgets, but the bigger clients, we can spend a full day and we have some lunch and make a really good day about it and get some guest speakers, there might be people in the Hallam business that could, again, that have got something to say to that could be very valuable to their business, we could have someone from content, talk about some great blogs or some great insights, or the technical team that have done a really good report. So it’s that chance really to give them different areas of the business that they not may not necessarily have experienced before or don’t have as part of their daily offering. But ultimately, we are adding value, so what can those people bring to give them something that they don’t already have?
Jenny Plant 35:53
A couple of quick questions, Kate, presumably you don’t typically attend the QBR’s?
Kate Vines 35:59
I have attended a few. It very much depends on how involved I am in the account, how many hours are assigned to me, it can be useful for me just to have a bit of an overall picture of what’s going on. But it’s not strictly necessary. So it would be on an ad hoc basis, depending on how involved I am in the retainer itself, but generally not
Jenny Plant 36:26
One quick question before I go on to the final question. Kio, do you find that more senior client stakeholders attend those quarterly business reviews, who are not perhaps involved in the more day to day kind of running of the projects?
Kio Aghoghogbe 36:44
They do, that’s a very good question and they do. So generally, all the day to day contacts would be there, but with most accounts, the structure, you have a senior director who is informed and might want to see the monthly reports. But is very distant on the day to day comms that does attend. Ultimately what we wanted to do on the QBR’s is to get in as many people that have a vested interest in the relationship, in the retainer, as part of that, because there is so much that they can bring and help us to strategize and ultimately from the QBR, the ultimate thing you want is to get decisions. So it is all well and good brainstorming ideas and thinking about things that you could do. You do then want to be in a position where somebody says, yes, that’s something that we can do. It makes sense as a business case for it, let’s do it, or let’s run with it. Or ultimately not if it’s a bad idea is best to shoot it down as quickly as possible, there is no point wasting energy and time to it. If that one person that type of thinks, you know what this is completely way off, it is a waste of time. So yes, I really encourage as many senior people to get involved in it, because, ultimately they are paying a lot of money for a retainer and services from an agency. So why wouldn’t you want to spend one day? all you are aksing for is four days of the year really, so I am sure you’ve got that time.
Jenny Plant 37:57
Great point. Okay, so a question for both of you. What friction points do you find occur between the AM and PM working together?
Kate Vines 38:05
I could go on this one.
Jenny Plant 38:08
Okay,
Kate Vines 38:09
It tends to be, well, it is sales and AM that we tend to have this friction point where it tends to be when a project or retainer has been sold in with unrealistic timescales or an unrealistic budget. The term friction point probably seems to me a little bit stronger word than I would normally associate with it, because it’s so easy to navigate and so easy to work around. So when that does happen, we did have an instance fairly recently with where Kio had sold in a job, and had given some timelines to the client. All it was, was I popped into Slack, these are the risks associated with doing that, because we haven’t checked the schedule. So we don’t know whether we can deliver it or not. So Hallam is all about learning, so it is explaining the risk attached. Then actually, when I went away and booked the work in, Kio had been a superstar and had included enough contingency in those dates that we were able to. There was a little bit of jiggery pokery that had to happen. But fundamentally, we managed to schedule it in within the timescales that he’d given. And when it comes to budget, I think there has to be an understanding from the PMs really, that sometimes in a sales and account management role, sometimes they are going to have to squeeze the budget a little bit and we have to just try and work around that and try and agree on a way to book the work in that is not compromising the quality of the work, It’s not stressing the team out, but still profitable. And the way we manage that Hallam really is just to have, we just need to know that somebody has approved a discount, somebody has approved a different profit target on this account. We make a note of it, just so that because as PM’s we are measured on the profitablity of the projects that we work on. So if the profitability is not where it should be, we have just got a record that actually, if you remember, we sold this in because there was a real potential for client growth here and we wanted to get that sale in. So it was worth doing a 5% discount, because actually, we are going to work with these people again and again and again. So key friction points, really are budget and timings but nothing that’s unsurpassable.
Jenny Plant 40:25
And does that mean that you typically Kate, maybe Kio had that conversation, but would you systematically usually develop cost estimates and timelines? whose job is it?
Kate Vines 40:38
It can kind of start from either of us, depending on how busy people are. But we we basically ask the team to estimate the tasks that are involved in the work, in the job. Then as a project manager, we need to check that. We will put it onto the system, just as a kind of double check to make sure the correct rate cards are applied and there have been no errors. Spreadsheets can sometimes throw spanners in the works. So we’ll put it on the system, make sure that it’s all on budget. So that sits with the project manager and then again, the project manager will put together timelines, because it’s very easy for an account manager to look in isolation, say, that person’s available, I’ll book the work in. But actually, as project managers, with a small team of three project managers at Hallam, every week, we have planning meetings, so we know the bigger picture, we know what might be about to land with that person that’s kind of earmarked but not in the schedule yet. So the project manager very much look after that scheduling, the time lining, and I will just report into Kio and give him the timeline, the dates that he needs to communicate with the client, or I’ll just go direct to the client and deal with it directly with them.
Jenny Plant 41:49
Right. So just to clarify, coming up with the actual estimate itself and looking at who’s available and who needs to be involved in the project, you do that together that kind of thinking? and then who actually solidifies it in a into a cost estimate format, and then sends it to the client? Could it be either of you?
Kate Vines 42:08
It tends to be the account manager doesn’t it Kio?
Kio Aghoghogbe 42:11
Yes, we are the ones who work with the calculators and the cost sheets and do the initial estimates and put times, but it is contextual – how long the jobs going to be, and roughly what the cost is, and then yes, and then do the detail,
Kate Vines 42:29
Often, the account manager has a vague idea of what kind of budget the client has in mind, whereas the project manager might not be as close to that information. So I would just be taking the estimates from all the teams and going back,saying here you go client, here’s your £45,000 project and they’d be like, actually, no, actually we were thinking £30k. Whereas if it’s going through the account manager, they can have a look and say, okay, we need to scale this back somewhere, because they are not going to spend £45,000, they haven’t got that much money. So that’s why it’s better coming from and via the account manager at that point.
Jenny Plant 42:29
Okay Gotcha. Thank you for that clarification. Just quick question. Before I get on to the final question. I know I keeps saying that! You said, Kate, that you are measured on profitability. Is there any compensation attached to that? Or is it just an internal measure of successful project delivery,
Kate Vines 43:25
it’s just an internal measure. At Hallam, we do have a bonus scheme. However it is across the board. If we meet target, everyone gets the same amount, which I actually feel works really well, because then everyone’s pulling together for the same end goal. There’s no kind of internal competitiveness. So I think that works really well and it is worth noting, these are our internal goals that we have to meet. We are never disciplined on not meeting a specific percentage, because as anyone in the agency world will appreciate, things happen, things come out of left field, with out of scope work you might be able to charge for it or it might be a precarious relationship with the account. You might not be able to charge everything that you should be able to charge for. There’s so many things that can pop in. We just make sure as project managers that we note these down, we learn from them. That’s the key thing and all the time it is not making a note so that we can finger point and say that’s where it went wrong. It is actually next project, let’s make sure that when people are signing the contract, they’re aware of this and it’s so that every single time we are improving how profitable we can be just by tightening things up at the earliest stages of a project.
Jenny Plant 44:44
Love that. Great points. Thank you so much. This is the final question, I promise. Any advice? I’d like to hear from both of you for an agency owner, who perhaps is at that point in growth where they’re considering having a separate AM and PM and maybe up to this point, they have had a hybrid account manager and, initially, you have probably experienced this yourself that there may be some teething problems while they get this kind of rhythm going, what advice would you give to them generally, that they’re on the fence, maybe they’re looking at it but haven’t quite decided, or a bit worried about how that’s going to work? What are your words of wisdom for them?
Kio Aghoghogbe 45:27
I would just say just focus on building competency, if you want an agency that is diverse and broad, and has many different skill sets to tackle all the different potentials and possibilities of what you are going to face in terms of the clients and the different situations. So having people that can do different roles and different elements of those, to a very good standard and are experts in each individual one, is only going to benefit you because you are going to be well armed to tackle anything that could come your way. So that’s the first thing and secondly, I would almost treat account management like you would any different discipline. So a UI designer is very different from a UX designer or a graphic designer or illustrator, you would not generalise all those. In the same way a paid media specialist is different to a paid search or social specialist. So again, it’s just all about recognising the differences of competencies within client services are just the same. account managers are very good at doing what they do, and have very different skill sets to a project manager and to just recognise that and appreciate the diversity and that they both have very different distinct skill sets and strengths and weaknesses. And it’s good to have a mix of those because it’s going to benefit you longer term.
Jenny Plant 46:39
Love that great Kate, anything to add?
Kate Vines 46:41
I think Kio nailed it, I think it is worth noting that I would challenge any business to not become more profitable if you have an account manager and project manager working an account. I think you are just looking after all aspects. I think from a future proofing perspective as well, you’ve got an account manager there, making sure that the work is coming in that your pipeline is filled up, whilst the project manager is making sure that the stuff is happening. I think once you’ve made that jump and made the decision to go into account manager and project manager separately, the key bit of advice I would say is define your responsibilities between the two roles, but do not be afraid to deviate from them on a case by case basis, because you want to play to strengths and each individual will have strengths and weaknesses in different areas. So you need your account management and project management team to just communicate with each other as to what they’re picking up and what roles they’re doing on each account. So you have defined responsibilities, make sure the client is aware of who’s there and why they’re there and I don’t think you can go wrong.
Jenny Plant 47:56
Lovely. What a great piece of advice. Is there anything that I haven’t asked you that you’d like to say before we sign off?
Kio Aghoghogbe 48:02
Good question! not really no, nothing that jumps out to me, sorry, no. Okay, that’s the most obvious question you’ve asked today!
Kate Vines 48:18
You know what? I think there’s probably one last little bit and that’s the account management/ project management team is a bit like making a boy band or a girl band, I think you have got to have different characters, different personalities, and you have all got to understand each other and work well with each other in your own different ways. Because you can not be a bunch of robots and you want to be able to assign the right people to the right accounts that are going to bring the right personality to that account. But you’ve all got a job to do and you’ve all got to communicate and get on with it. So think of it like you’re making a boy band.
Jenny Plant 48:56
Love that analogy! That is a great way to finish thank you so much. Listen, thank you so much to both of you. I know this is a commitment of time and I really appreciate it. I know how valuable this is going to be. So thank you so much.
Kate Vines 49:09
Thank you.
Kio Aghoghogbe 49:10
Yes, thanks for having us.
