Welcome to Episode 91.
This episode is for you if you’re interested in how the AI landscape is changing for agencies and what you need to know from a legal perspective about your use of AI. I chatted with Sharon Toerek, Founder and Owner of Legal + Creative| Toerek Law.
The topics that we covered include:
- the ownership of the outputs
- potential protection of your inputs
- designing policies and contracts, including clauses that will cover your freelancers and relationships with contractors, and not to mention your strategic partnerships with other agencies
- future developments and what’s foreseen to happen, as well as the current US legal environment.
We have included of Sharon’s contact details in the transcript below.
We also ran an AI for Account Managers webinar recently together with Roy Murphy and the recording has been asked for several times. If you don’t want to miss out on any future mini trainings we’re doing in this area, then please sign up for my newsletter here and we’ll make sure that you get notified of future podcast episodes and any mini trainings.
Transcript:
00:02 Jenny Plant
So I am absolutely delighted that I’ve managed to persuade Sharon Toerek to come and join me on the show. Sharon, you have been a very highly anticipated guest. Sharon is the owner of IP and marketing law firm Toerek Law and the host of the Innovation Agency Podcast. Toerek Law helps independent marketing and creative service agencies protect and monetise their IP and manage the legal implications of their marketing and advertising work. Sharon is a very busy lady recently because she’s been helping agencies navigate the legal side of using generative AI and also is a speaker at this year’s Marketing AI Institute conference. So, Sharon, a very warm welcome to you.
00:50 Sharon Toerek
Jenny, I’m so thrilled to be here. Thank you for having me on your show.
00:53 Jenny Plant
Thank you so much for coming. So, Sharon, can we kick off? Because I’ve got a ton of questions and a couple of questions from my audience as well. Can you talk a bit about Toerek Law? Who are your clients and what challenges are they bringing you lately relating to AI?
01:10 Sharon Toerek
Yes, our clients are independent agencies that practice in any number of marketing disciplines. They could be digital or creative. What they have in common is they are independent, small to mid in size and generally not holding company agencies. We help them protect their assets, monetize them, develop strong contracts with their clients and other stakeholders and navigate marketing regulations. And the AI questions we are getting, come from two angles, really. What about protecting if we need to think about protecting the input that’s going into generative AI tools, and then what are the consequences of the stuff that comes out the other side of the generative AI tools? What are the responsibilities around that? Who owns it? What should we be talking to our clients about? What should our contracts be reflecting? What should we be telling our teams? Sometimes there’s some redundancy in those things, other times there are different considerations that are top of mind when you are addressing those questions.
But that’s what agencies are worried about right now and you know, as I was joking with you when we talked, Jenny, it is always the case that technology is bounding ahead of us all on its sneakers, just running, running. And then business does a pretty good job of adapting quickly. And that includes agencies. And then we lawyers are, kind of following behind, sweeping up the mess and trying to answer all the questions that that creates. And this is no different than any other technology that raises legal questions. It’s just moving more quickly.
03:03 Jenny Plant
I can see that. And absolutely you have carved a niche for yourself, Sharon, because I know and you are right, it’s like a moving feast. So you are one of the only people in the market at the moment that’s keeping ahead of how it’s changing. So let’s break those down and ask specific questions, because you are absolutely right. I like the way you said protecting input and the consequences of the output. So let’s start with the protecting inputs. Can you talk to us a bit about what that kind of looks like and what the latest state of play is?
03:37 Sharon Toerek
I think what most agencies are concerned about is do we have an understanding and a transparency with our clients about how we will be using these generative AI tools? So how will we be engineering our prompts? Where will we be getting the inspiration to do that? Or are you client brand giving us some output or giving us some potential inputs to use to put into AI to help create the deliverables? If so, who owns that stuff to begin with? Do we have the permission of whoever owns it and whatever human or entity created it to actually put it in? Because once you fed it into a generative AI tool, it becomes part of the training data. You cannot sort of unwind that clock it’s in there. And so what do we need to be thinking about in terms of protecting the inputs? Can we use copyright protected works to feed into our prompts and determine what sort of outcomes will come out the other side that might inspire us to do work?
So I think primarily the concern is what’s our legal responsibility for managing what we put into the generative AI tool? What can we do, what cannot we do and what questions should we be asking? So I think those are the main considerations and state of play right now with respect to that is authors and creators and other original content makers are starting to try to hold OpenAI and other generative AI purveyors accountable for the fact that their copywritten and owned work is being fed into generative AI tools which are money making machines, or they are intended to be at some point in the future, with no compensation to their original copyright creators. And so we are starting to see lawsuits in the US from author groups, from some notable entertainers. Sarah Silverman is one of the entertainers who has sued OpenAI and so who owns the ability to control when that stuff gets fed into an AI generative technology and then whatever comes out, whatever the output is, can we use it, what can we do?
What sort of uses can we make of it? And who’s responsible if there’s an infringement there? And the answer right now to that question is the end user is probably going to be left holding the bag right now because any terms and conditions of any major AI purveyor right now will hold that purveyor harmless for any infringement that occurs out the other side of the process.
06:39 Jenny Plant
It’s really interesting, isn’t it? Because like you said, the law is catching up with how speedily this is happening, if we put it on a really tactical basis, I’ll give you an example of an AI tool that’s being used in the agency space. It’s not necessarily Chat GPT but there’s tools that we can use like Otter.AI and Fireflies.AI, which capture a transcript from a meeting that you have where you are talking to the client and the client’s talking to you. Now, if you were to say to the client, is it okay if I record this session so that we can capture the notes and I’ll provide you a summary of what we have agreed with the actions, that seems like a logical way of utilizing that tool. However, for the purposes of account managers, particularly, because that’s my audience, if I’m talking to a client and the client starts sharing confidential information, maybe they don’t realize that it is, maybe they do know, I don’t know, but something slips out, obviously, Fireflies or Otter has that information because you have signed up to use that tool.
So can you talk to us a bit about how basically guidelines for agencies and account managers in particular that might be using those tools?
08:04 Sharon Toerek
So while I will acknowledge there’s slightly less risk where it is a client to agency conversation, and your risk is lower because the likelihood of anybody sorting through all that data to actually get at information conveyed client to agency, or vice versa is low,
it’s definitely not risk free and I will tell you one of the major issues here with using AI to feed confidential or proprietary information into the machinery is that you risk destroying any trade secret protection you have. AI is not, I can’t responsibly say AI right now is a safe place to be having this, to be housing that information
because you are disclosing it, first of all, which is the hallmark of keeping a trade secret and you have no control over once it’s in a training set of an AI machine, a tool, it’s in there, and you will not extract it.
At least there’s no safe way to do so right now, or no legal precedent for forcing the extraction right now. So keep those conversations human to human or encrypted via email or all the other tools that you use to communicate with your clients or good old fashioned face to face meetings with somebody taking notes. Which I know sounds old school, but if the best way to keep proprietary information proprietary is to not destroy the secret nature of it, and AI is just not built to do that safely right now.
10:02 Jenny Plant
Okay, good advice. Similarly, if I’m using Chat GPT, for example, just for the purposes of all listeners, putting anything that’s sensitive about your client business is a similar thing, isn’t it? You’re using a different type of tool, but essentially anything that you put into that tool, it can be used as training data. And I suppose my second follow on question is, there is a mode that you can switch off to go into privacy mode, which means you can visibly see that the thread of conversations won’t be captured. Can we rely on that kind of setting, do you think? It’s probably an unfair question, but I just would be curious about your view on it.
11:23 Sharon Toerek
My view would be, and you know it feels conservative, obviously to our audience, because agency folks tend to have a pretty high tolerance for risk, but my view on that point right now is, no, you cannot rely on it to have any safeguards that will be meaningful to you if your client comes to hold the agency accountable for the release of information that is proprietary or meant to be held close to the vest for whatever reason I don’t believe you are honouring, or can safely honour your legal obligations or ethical obligations right now by feeding it into any AI generated tool really in any mode. That will change I expect, as the technology continues and continues to develop, but not today.
11:44 Jenny Plant
Interesting. There’s so many questions, Sharon, let me just ask you another one about outputs. So in terms of well, I suppose let’s jump to agreements, because I know that Paul Roetzer is recommending everyone should have an AI policy, you know, being really upfront from an agency perspective and the client’s perspective to have an agreement about how the AI tools are going to be used. So what are you seeing generally, particularly with independent agencies in terms of having those contracts in place?
12:27 Sharon Toerek
Most are focused on and there’s some redundancy here between the two of the things that I’m about to talk about. But most agencies right now are focused on their internal facing policy about the way they’re going to handle AI, what tools their team members are authorized to use, for what purposes might they be authorized to use them. What levels of approval are required when an AI technology is going to be used in service of a client or to create a deliverable and what the guidelines are for conversations with the clients. Because this all does start with a client conversation, and
if the clients aren’t provoking the conversation as an agency, you are doing them and yourselves a favour by leading the conversation. What is your expectation regarding our use of generative AI tools? Do you have guidelines as a brand regarding which ones we can and cannot use, which information we can and cannot feed into our prompt engineering strategies?
What’s your expectation about, if you have one, about what percentage of the deliverables might consist of AI generated content? So you need an internal policy, and that’s where most agencies are focused right now. But I believe you need an external facing policy that needs to be sort of shared as early as the business development phase of the relationship. Probably after the pitch and probably after it’s already sort of decided that the parties are going to get married for a brief period of time for a project or a season or whatever. But at that point your policy needs to be shared and discussed and your obligations and also your indemnifications and the ways you are being held harmless then need to be reflected in language in your master service agreement, your terms and conditions, whatever document you use to cement your relationship with the client.
So it’s policies which are sort of aspirational and guidelines about the way the parties expect everyone to behave around AI and then it’s what are we committing to?
Agency to client and making certain in the form of perhaps a checklist you could include in your external facing policy, making certain you’ve asked the right questions of your client. Because some of the stakeholders of the client with whom you’re negotiating as an agency may not be on the forefront of what their company’s policies are with respect to AI use. And you don’t want a domino effect of the brand having not used AI in compliance with its own policy, then feeding you as an agency that output, et cetera. So having the conversation up front is huge and then reflecting what your commitments are and your responsibilities and what the client’s responsibilities are to you in that contract is critical.
15:36 Jenny Plant
Can you kind of share with us, top line, what people are tending to agree to at this stage? Like just a very top line of roughly what that conversation is looking like.
15:53 Sharon Toerek
They are agreeing, I think, top line to what will the purposes be of your use of generative AI? For what? Will it be for research? Will it be for inspiration only? Might we expect that the actual deliverables that we receive will have some AI generated content actually in them? So the expectations there. What technologies specifically do you use as an agency, and do you plan to use and are you going to be using the tools to make statements or claims about our products? Are you going to be gathering research data that you will be relying upon to develop the marketing strategy? And if so, can we see it? So it’s got to include all of those top line, really big picture issues. The indemnification and the liability discussion usually occurs later and it’s reflected in the agreement along with the other liability conversations that happen in these relationships.
But those are some of the top line things that you want to make sure that there’s alignment around in the beginning.
17:08 Jenny Plant
Great, that’s very thorough. Thank you. And I mean around the AI content that it’s generating to make sure that the client is who actually owns currently the AI generated content.
17:22 Sharon Toerek
A lovely question. here is the current state between the parties. Well, let’s start with the AI generative technology owners themselves. They are happy to tell you as a user that you will own the rights to the output. They don’t want to own the rights to the output because they want to avoid responsibility for infringing on anybody else’s intellectual property. Whether this accomplishes that is a separate question we can talk about some other time. But they are typically in most terms and conditions of most AI purveyors they will allow you the ownership rights to the output. Between agency and client, the client default in just about every circumstance, and I don’t expect it to change as a result of AI created deliverables is, we want to own it at the end of the day. I think there’s some claims agencies can make around. And I’ve been giving this a lot of thought as I’ve been working through sort of the issues that AI raises from an IP point of view.
I’ve given a lot of thought to who owns the frameworks that are used to create the prompt engineering or the prompt strategies, because I see some opportunities for agencies to develop their own proprietary frameworks for how they create the prompts to put into AI. And I think that stuff would be ownable by the agency and there would be good strategic reasons why, just like you own your own software or your own internal process for doing a specific thing or creating a specific outcome, et cetera. So I see some possibilities for agencies there, but by and large, the expectations are that the client would own the output at the end of the day.
19:06 Jenny Plant
Very interesting, because the reason I find it interesting, Sharon, I had a conversation with an account manager the other day and they had written a series of lines, copy lines for a client that were along kind of a certain brand tone of voice, and they were really fun. And the client said to the agency, thanks for these, we have kind of run out of budget, but in the future we will want to generate similar lines along that theme. Can you share with us the prompt that we can then use to generate them in house? So what you are saying, and obviously this is completely new for the agency, so they didn’t quite know how to respond. But what you have just explained is, there’s actually an opportunity there for the agency to say, hey, that’s our prompt framework, and what would you do? License it to the client or we ultimately own it, but you can use it in this context.
20:05 Sharon Toerek
I think it depends upon the amount of leverage you want to retain as an agency to get to work with that client in the future and what you think would be most harmonious in terms of the relationship for future opportunity. But I’m kind of an IP warrior for agencies. That’s how I came to fall into doing agency work, really, it was general marketer then agency, because we saw that agencies really needed advocacy here. So I’m a warrior for agency rights when it comes to intellectual property and so I feel therefore, that the maximum right now I’d like to see an agency client of my firm extend would be we will license it to you for certain purposes, but it’s our technology. The problem is, once you give them the strategy or the framework, there’s little indication they would need you for that work in the future.
And so you have to think about what’s more important to you, the long game, or is this a strategy you want to use with other clients? In which case I would absolutely keep it close to vest and I probably wouldn’t even license it in that circumstance because it’s holding you at a competitive advantage in the market.
21:21 Jenny Plant
It’s quite interesting that clients are starting to ask for it, isn’t it? But interesting that and I think there’s a brilliant point that you’ve made. You have to think long term, where is that going to put us in the future? Are we helping our clients sort of use us less?
21:36 Sharon Toerek
Yes, and I think that being an industry leader in the use of specific technologies and mechanisms has always been one of the things that can put an agency at a strategic and competitive advantage in the marketplace. We are talking about generative AI now, but we could be talking about another technology or another type of competency among agencies. And so you have to think about whether your secret sauce puts you at a competitive advantage for a particular kind of client or a particular client work. And if it does, then I would be very, like I said, close to the vest about doing anything other than licensing it. And I would only license it if I saw other opportunities with that client that would make it worthwhile. And then you have to have the appropriate confidentiality and nondisclosure language around all that licensing as well. So I’m not saying never do it.
I’m saying I’m an IP warrior for agencies and I like to see agencies hold on to their IP, especially if they might monetize it or commercialize it in other ways with other clients in the future.
22:47 Jenny Plant
That’s very good and I love that phrase, IP warrior. That’s brilliant. Now tell me, can you give me any examples of where maybe agencies have slipped up in some way with use of AI and how they’re in maybe dispute with clients just so we can highlight any things to avoid for agencies listening?
23:12 Sharon Toerek
Unfortunately, we don’t have any clients who have become at odds with their clients over the use of generative AI and the deliverables that it creates. I guess if
I had a crystal ball and had to predict what might be the most likely scenario, it would be liability over the use of the output. If there’s something in the output that is either infringing on someone else’s intellectual property or if it contains information or data that is incorrect or misleading or potentially damaging to the client brand, I see those as probably the low hanging fruit in terms of where things can go south first.
But I don’t think we have even got to the tip of the iceberg in terms of the different ways in which this could play havoc. The other possibility, and I don’t have a case to share with you yet, this has not happened to any of our clients.
But if you are a branding agency and you are using generative AI for inspiration and you create a visual identity for a client in support of their branding, that is strikingly similar to the branding of another in a somewhat similar product category, they may not be copyright issues because they may not be a match exactly, but you may have a trademark infringement problem and in almost every situation I’ve seen in the past where there’s a trademark issue where agencies develop the branding support, the agency is going to be held accountable to make their clients whole there. So haven’t seen a case yet. Won’t surprise me when I do see one.
25:08 Jenny Plant
I can see why you have become so busy and it’s expanding your business, Sharon, because everything you have said, like I’m just thinking, if I’m an agency owner listening to this, I’m thinking, gosh, I have to kind of diligently look at any outputs. I have to really look at how we’re utilizing and the inputs. I have to look at my contracts and check that the wording is buttoned up. Because I’m sure you’ve experienced this with different size of agencies. Sometimes when they are first starting out with their agency, they take some templates from the internet when it comes to contracts and just start off. I mean, I know it must be horrific for you to hear that, but I know you have experienced it.
25:50 Sharon Toerek
Oh yes, we see it every day, it’s no surprise.
25:52 Jenny Plant
Because the other issue that you said sorry, you were going to say something there.
26:00 Sharon Toerek
No, I wasn’t.
26:03 Jenny Plant
So I was just thinking about also your point at the beginning about giving instruction to their teams and also freelancers. Because freelancers you may bring in and you are under contract with a freelancer and you have to make sure that their contracts are updated in line with the AI policy, presumably.
26:26 Sharon Toerek
Absolutely and there are critical conversations and we only talked about two of them, the ones that you need to have with your clients and the ones you need to have with your team. That’s one we’ve seen a dramatic uptick in the last 24 months or so, of strategic alliances between agencies where agencies will collaborate with one another to serve a common client, so you need to be having those conversations with your collaborators and you need to be having those conversations with your vendors. If you are using a third party video production studio, for example, what are their AI practices and how might they matter to the deliverables that end up getting into your client’s hands.
I think you should sit down as an agency and in the process of developing your policy, decide who are our stakeholders, who do we interact with, or what categories of entities or people do we interact with who might use generative AI to inform their work for us. And then you need to go through that checklist, have that conversation with each of them and make sure the rules of the road are reflected in your agreements with those parties.
So, yes, freelancers are absolutely low hanging fruit in that regard, for sure.
27:58 Jenny Plant
Okay, some great tips here and I’m sure there’s people taking tons of notes already. I certainly am. Sharon, what have you learnt? Because you are obviously keeping on top of this and it’s a moving feast. Things are changing every day, every hour. What’s surprising you most about how quickly this is evolving and the impact, particularly because we’re talking about agencies. What’s your sense for what’s most surprising to you about how this is changing things?
28:32 Sharon Toerek
I think given the rapid pace since last Fall with which once sort of Chat GPT broke open and therefore the AI conversation was at the tip of the tongue of all of us, if you will, things have just moved so quickly, I’m actually kind of surprised we haven’t seen more litigation yet. I am confident 100% that we will start to see it by the end of the year because there’s just big questions that we legitimately don’t have the answers to. We have some guidance in the US from our Copyright Office, we have a lot of noise being made by our legislators in the US about it, but it tends to be about the safety considerations and the ethical considerations that AI raises. Not so much about party to party liability and sort of IP infringement issues that agency owners might worry about day to day.
So I’m a little bit, I guess, impressed with the level of discourse at the government level here in our country and I’m a little bit surprised we haven’t seen more lawsuits than we have yet because everything else has been moving so quickly. And I think, and I have thought this for a while, this is a golden opportunity for agencies because AI still requires human strategy, human gatekeeping, human intervention to actually be harnessed effectively for your clients to achieve their brand goals. And there’s no one in a better position to do that than an agency. And so I think this presents challenges, to be certain, but also a golden opportunity for you all to do what you do best, which is the kind of strategic thinking and creative idea generation that your clients demand of you. AI will be one tool you’ll use and perhaps you will lean on it more heavily as the time progresses.
But today, as we are talking, it requires your intervention, your interpretation, your curation. And this is where agencies shine. This is why the IP that agencies create is so important to me personally and why it’s important to the work that my firm does, because I think agencies undervalue it in themselves. I think they don’t own their position strongly enough in general in the client relationship with respect to what they generate. And so this is giving us an opportunity to have this conversation on another level.
31:13 Jenny Plant
Presumably a lot of your clients, as agencies are asking you to review client contracts, if they want a big piece of business, the client inevitably provides their contract on how they are going to work together. And there’s paragraphs in there relating to client ownership of the IP. So I’m sure that’s something that you’ve been looking at for a long period of time. How often do you find that agencies are able to change those terms so that they have ownership of IP?
31:52 Sharon Toerek
The highest success rate we see with agencies on this point will be in two areas. First of all, you are typically going to be successful in general, putting AI aside for a brief second, you are typically going to be successful making the transfer of the IP rights contingent on you being paid. Most brands will agree to that concession once you explain it. That wasn’t always true. It’s mostly true these days. Secondly, most brands are going to understand that if you use third party generated work that is subject to the terms and conditions of the third party. And the best sort of traditional examples of that are stock photography, stock bonds, stock videography, things like that. So I imagine that this is where large enterprises will adapt or evolve their IP language to account for the ownership of AI generated work. My idea about the best approach is that it’s probably best handled in its own separate clause of the agreement.
And that will be our best practice going forward in the contracts that we develop and negotiate. And so we will probably be striving to get to sort of chip away at the IP language in an enterprise agreement and also then the liability language because those are the two logical places to address and negotiate AI related issues.
33:27 Jenny Plant
So it’s almost like an AI separate clause in itself, talking in detail.
33:33 Sharon Toerek
Exactly right, yes. And I think because they think that there’s two sides or at least two sides to the issues that AI raises, and it’s hard to address them completely unless you maybe take some real estate in the agreement and do it globally there.
33:50 Jenny Plant
Absolutely what other pieces of advice and tips would you have for agencies right now, Sharon, for where we are in this agency, sorry, in this AI landscape?
34:02 Sharon Toerek
I think that my biggest tip is I would be conservative about the amount of responsibility you are willing to assume here because there are too many unknowns, but I would be proactive about the creativity that you exhibit in the ways you are willing to experiment with AI, just do it with transparency, disclosure and buy-in from your client. They will perceive you as a leader and an early adapter, and you are more likely to be perceived as cutting edge in your particular specialty. If you have thought through as an agency how and when you are going to use it, which platforms you want to use and why, and you share all that with the brand so that expectations are clear and you are leading the conversation, not just following and acquiescing to whatever the corporate requirements of your brand clients might be on the issue.
35:05 Jenny Plant
That’s great advice, leading the conversation. And I think there are some agencies that are picking up the mantle and running with that. Others I feel and I don’t know what you’re seeing, but some are still a little bit putting their heads in the sand, kind of hoping that it’s all going to sort itself out. But to your point earlier, I’m sure on the client side, they haven’t quite got their ducks in a row in terms of how they are going to deal with suppliers.
35:32 Sharon Toerek
Exactly. Jenny. I mean, we both know that enterprises move at a glacial pace, right? And so getting an approved change to the master service agreement that the procurement department uses to engage a services company, whether they are selling toner cartridges or marketing services, it will take a while, they will catch up, let’s not be disillusioned about that. But I think agencies have this gap of time now where they can just really be perceived as leaders.
36:05 Jenny Plant
What else do you see coming through for the future, Sharon? Because I know you’re a friend of Paul Roetzer, who’s the head of the Marketing AI Institute. Have you got any other future kind of seeing what’s going to happen that’s coming down the line?
36:30 Sharon Toerek
I think we’re just going to see more tools. And I think one of the big issues that will impact marketers is the deep fake issue. We’re only worried about it in the intelligence community.
I think that substituting the use of talent in campaigns for AI generated like this is I think that will be an issue because it will affect the talent market, which is already volatile in the United States. I’m not sure about in England, but I know here there’s all kinds of challenges right now. So I think that will be an issue to be dealt with. When can we use voice simulation? When can we use computer generated imagery of individuals? It saves a ton of time, it saves a ton of money. What are the ethical and legal issues involved? So I think that’ll be a big one coming next.
37:41 Jenny Plant
Yes, that’s a really good shout, Sharon. This has been value packed. Thank you so much. Have you got any final words of wisdom to share with agencies, anything that we have not covered that you would like to kind of provide your sound counsel on?
37:59 Sharon Toerek
Well, first of all, Jenny, thank you so much for taking the time to have the conversation. This has been fast paced but really enjoyable and no, I mean I think my biggest piece of advice is don’t be afraid of this. And I understand the logical reasons to be afraid of it. It’s affecting all service industries and mine included. But I think if you put your energy into mastering the tools to increase your bandwidth, it’s going to only lead to good things for you. And I understand the fear around it. What is it going to mean for our people, what is it going to mean for whether or not our clients still need us anymore? I acknowledge and I respect all of that, but I think that moving forward with fear is never particularly productive. I think history shows us that in all economies and in all events.
And so don’t be afraid. Experiment with this stuff. Think proactively about what you might be asked and have those questions answered in advance and lead the conversation as I said before.
39:08 Jenny Plant
Great. Sharon, I’m sure there’s lots of people thinking I need Sharon’s help right now because I need someone to help me navigate this. So what’s the best way of reaching you and who, ideally, would you like to hear from?
39:21 Sharon Toerek
Well, again, we work with independent agencies, primarily US based, but if you’re an agency outside the US that does business in the United States, we would certainly be glad to be helpful to you. I’m pretty active on LinkedIn. That’s a great place to find me – Sharon Toerek. You can reach out to us legalandcreative.com, which is our industry facing brand for the law firm. And I never mind sharing my email because I think nobody wants to email a lawyer unless they really need to talk to one. So it’s sharon@legalandcreative.com. I’d be happy to chat with you there as well.
40:00 Jenny Plant
Amazing. We will put all of that information in the show notes. Sharon, it’s been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much. This has been invaluable.
40:08 Sharon Toerek
I appreciate the opportunity to have the conversation and to catch up with you, Jenny, It was a really great time. So thank you for having me.
40:15 Jenny Plant
Thank you.
