Welcome to Episode 80. My guest is Mark Sainthill, an agency M&A expert.
If you’re an agency owner, you’re thinking about selling either now or at some point in the future, Mark talked about the main things you need to consider if you want to sell and why market conditions and timing are really key.
He also talked about what’s most attractive to a potential buyer, and the actual process of selling. We discussed the future, and why agencies need to keep evolving their services to keep ahead of changing data protection rules, and helping clients explore different advertising channels.
If you want to know what your agency could be worth, or if now could be a good time to sell, contact Mark on LinkedIn or perhaps get in touch with one of the team at Cactus.
If you have an account manager in your team, or perhaps you are an account manager and you’re looking to upskill, my next agency Account Accelerator (TM) training programme starts on March 28th 2023. You can read more here.
Transcript:
Jenny Plant 00:02
So today we’re covering a topic that I haven’t spoken about before. It’s mergers and acquisitions. And I’m really thankful to have Mark Sainthill with me. Mark is managing partner for M&A at Cactus. Cactus is the UK’s leading corporate advisory and growth consultancy for agencies. And Mark has a lot of experience in this area. He spent over 15 years in the media and marketing services sector. He’s worked in house for agencies and as a consultant to agency owners, and has acted both from a buyer and a seller side in corporate finance transactions. So big welcome, Mark. Thank you.
Mark Sainthill 00:42
Thank you very much for having me, Jenny.
Jenny Plant 00:43
I’m delighted to have you here. Thank you so much for agreeing to it Mark. I think I am going to learn a lot. So would you mind starting off just spending a couple of minutes talking about you, your background and how you ended up advising agencies on M&A?
Mark Sainthill 00:59
Yes, well, I didn’t originally think about going into M&A itself, I did a business degree, worked in the advertising media world, which I really enjoyed. So worked at firms like Mediacom and Cake. I always loved working in agencies, but I realised if I wanted to move into a management role, I’d have to have a kind of qualification and accounting was something I was always good at. I was always good at numbers. So I got trained, well, I trained myself as an accountant and started working in agencies as a management accountant, and worked my way up. I spent five years, I guess, of my agency career in Ogilvy in various commercial finance roles, working with a lot of account management people, and working on global client accounts, and after about five years, I just realised I wanted to see a world outside WPP and use my finance and accounting skills to help founders and spend more time with them, rather than going to internal finance teams, which is what often happens in big corporates. So yes I have been doing M&A advisory for about six or seven years now. I left WPP and joined a small M&A consultancy and learned the ropes, and been on some great, great journeys with agencies, sold a great number of companies and done more of the softer side, the growth advisory, which is a sort of management consulting approach to helping agencies scale so not just the bean counter, I’d like to think and I joined Cactus a year ago to focus on M&A and selling businesses mainly.
Jenny Plant 02:56
Brilliant. Okay, sounds like you’ve got a lot of experience. Before I dive into the questions about M&A, you said that you were commercial finance at WPP and worked with a lot of account managers. Now, I’m going to throw you a curveball question, because, obviously, a lot of account managers listen to this podcast. Can you tell me, what’s the one thing that you think account managers could be doing better in their role, to have more of a commercial mindset?
Mark Sainthill 03:27
Embrace finance, and embrace your finance team I’d say, rather than it is always boring. I could always see account managers rolling their eyes every month when we had to come round and review the accounts. Better to make use of them than to try and escape from them, I say. So the finance team, also, hopefully, you have good commercial finance support within your organisation to give you the right information to be better at managing your clients and the resourcing. If you don’t, try and ask them to hire one. You got to expect it’s bigger than finance or everything. Because, what I learned about account management was that you had to have so many different skill sets and hats on that you can’t ever be expected to do everything. So the best way I worked with them were those account management client services that we had a good relationship with and they probably took a disproportionate amount of my time but ultimately it helped their accounts.
Jenny Plant 04:29
Right. So make commercial finance people your friend in your takeaway. All right. So what are some of the most common reasons that agency owners come to you for your M&A help?
Mark Sainthill 04:40
Often they want to understand the value of their business today and how do they grow value in their business and what is the path to exit? So we often look at growth options because there’s not necessarily one route, obviously, there’s lots of businesses that are ready to sale and I just want support them through that process and find the best buyer and the best deal. Sometimes we have agencies that need to restructure, either there are shareholders that are looking to exit, or they are bringing them in or merging another business into theirs. Then sometimes we help businesses or agencies acquire other smaller agencies. So a number of reasons around really, their growth options for them and just considering how they get the most value out of the agency.
Jenny Plant 05:34
Do you find Mark, because obviously, I know that you network with an awful lot of agency owners and you spend most of your time with agency owners, would you say that most agency owners have an exit goal or plan?
Mark Sainthill 05:48
A mixture really, I think some people love running their agencies and never feel like they’d ever sell them. I think when times are tough, often they look and go, do I want to do this alone? and I think lock down and COVID put a lot of agency owners and their agencies in difficulty or put huge amounts of stress on them. So I think did a lot of people, and when you reach a certain age maybe, or life events, and you have kids, you want to have this plan in mind, or you realise that you can’t grow your agency beyond where you’ve got it, and you need to be part of a bigger group. So it’s not necessarily all about money. Often people are stuck in the weeds of survival rather than planning ahead and they tend to not think about selling until they feel like they’ve hit certain metrics but half the people have an exit in mind, definitely. And I suppose there’s lots of books and resources around building your company from the beginning, as if you’re going to sell, even if you don’t have the intention to sell. Do you think that’s generally good advice? I think it’s useful to have. Well, first of all, it’s good to have a really concrete plan for whatever reason that is, but I think some people start an agency organically because they have left one and they wanted to run their own thing, and it’s just sort of grown. But having an exit in mind is useful and what kind of scale you get to and I think you do need to have flexibility in the plan, and always be considering whether what you’re doing is working, I think you find out from your clients and your success and your growth. And if those things are working really well, there will be buyers who want to acquire your business. So as long as the fundamentals for your business are strong, there will be buyers who will come knocking on your door, you might have to do just a bit of marketing and brand awareness, but you will know you are on the road to success when people start knocking on your door. But realistically, it won’t be before you’ve reached a million and a half or 2 million revenue, where your agency’s reached the size that someone thinks it’s going to be an additive to their group.
Jenny Plant 08:24
Gotcha. Okay, that’s really useful to know. So if someone’s listening to this, and they think, no, I absolutely want to sell my business. What advice would you give? Because, some people probably think, well, I know I’m a good five to 10 years off actually doing it. But what would you say are the core things that they need to either consider, or put in place so that they’re building it? When at the point that they do want to sell it, it becomes easier?
Mark Sainthill 08:54
Yes, it’s a good question. Timing is everything and it’s quite hard, you need a crystal ball essentially, because you don’t know when the market is going to shift. When competitors are going to come in, whether there’ll be a change in the kind of media landscape. So
you always have to be prepared for change in the industry, but expect the journey to be five years plus and then for it not to be a linear growth or hockey stick as some people might hope. You will go through a number of these hurdles of growth and you will have to restructure your business and restructure the kind of clients you go after and your proposition. So just be prepared that it will take a few more years and great if you can get it done sooner. Then once you are ready to sell remember the exit process, that getting ready will take a year and then the sale and that you will be tied in for three years, probably two to three years into any business, and any acquirer. So consider that as part of realising the value for your agency.
Jenny Plant 10:01
Okay, interesting. And how much bearing does the market have? Because I hadn’t actually considered that, I was thinking it could be any time. But you, obviously are very in tune with what’s happening in the market at the moment. Would you say that there’s moments in time that you’ve seen that “This is a really good time”? And if so, why, from a market perspective?
Mark Sainthill 10:25
Yes, I think emerging technologies or new media, TikTok is a good example. If you’re working on TikTok, and you’re one of the creative studios for TikTok, you would be hitting a really good sweet spot in the market at the moment. There is also not much appetite for consumer facing agencies, for obvious reasons, so B2B is very strong. There are things around where is the economy, technology, and regulation too, I mean, at the moment, Facebook, or Meta who is their advertising model is not in a good way. So those kinds of businesses are not going to be performing well, and it’s not going to be as attractive to buyers. But you do need to focus on the fundamentals of your business, making sure you have a niche and an interesting offering for your clients, but also something that would fit within a group. So we talk about commoditized services, versus something that’s a bit more scarce or unique. But a lot of the time, being a service business is all about the leadership team and the people and what you have built and your culture, because if that doesn’t work for a buyer, whatever services you’re providing, they will be put off and often it will kill the deal.
Jenny Plant 11:53
So many questions I’ve got written down, can we go back a step to what you said about Facebook and Meta and the ad model, what’s broken about the ad model, tell me a bit more about that.
Mark Sainthill 12:04
Ever since GDPR and the data privacy rules have come in, it is all around the ability to target audiences and essentially Apple have also blocked or asked their users to allow or not allow their data to be tracked. Most people, more than half, I think 70 to 80% of people have now blocked Facebook being allowed to track their activity or track who they are. So that wealth of data that they used to target users or audiences has gone. And also, they have been fined at the beginning of this year, I think it’s something like 400 million by the EU over using customer data in the wrong way. So advertisers have already seen a huge drop in performance of Meta, and that’s across Facebook and Instagram. So they are going to have to scramble to be able to better target audiences and get results for the advertisers otherwise, that money is going to move away.
Jenny Plant 13:19
So this, you would say, is impacting the more social media agency leanings, the agencies now that are mostly doing Facebook advertising and paid social search? They are the ones that are being affected by this?
Mark Sainthill 13:36
Yes, exactly, unless they have got a multi-channel approach, if they are very heavily reliant on Meta to do their paid social and e-commerce. It has been obviously huge for e-commerce brands to use that channel to drive sales. That’s probably one example of where that model or their advertising models are going to have to change, or agencies are going to have to find other workarounds.
Jenny Plant 14:06
Do you know any examples of any agencies that have had to do a workaround? And if so, what are those workarounds?
Mark Sainthill 14:15
There’s a great marketing agency that I interviewed on the Agencynomics podcast recently. There is never a single channel, it depends what the client is, it depends what the outcomes you are trying to get, the audiences they are trying to reach. Obviously TikTok is great for younger audiences, there’s a lot more buying across connected TVs now. There’s a lot more audience segmentation. Pinterest is also much more shoppable. And Shopify as an e-commerce platform is also building up their own first party data. So there are lots of different channels that agencies can now use to buy In media, it is just a question of picking the right channel and being an expert in that channel.
Jenny Plant 15:07
That’s great advice, actually, for any social media agency listening, or a performance marketing agency listening, that want to steer their client in the right direction, it’s all about finding out what their outcomes are. Then perhaps, taking a wider view of what they could do differently and the different channels. The other thing you said when we were talking about the optimum time to sell or what an agency owner has to have in place and you said, “if they have a niche offering”, is it a niche as in an industry vertical? Or is it more of a horizontal service niche?
Mark Sainthill 15:42
It could be one, or the other, or both. The agency world is so competitive, I think you can’t be a “jack of all trades” at all. I think you either decide to go after particular consumers, whether it is the Millennials or Gen Zed now. I am probably a Millennial, I’ve got old! Or you look in healthcare, or you look in B2B, specific areas of B2B are helpful. Then I guess with services it’s quite hard to be a full service unless you have significant scale. So if you are focusing on creative, then be a very good creative studio. So for your clients, and for your focus and your efficiency, it’s better to be very clear, and try and have a simple service offering that avoids you failing your clients or not being clear on who you work with, or who you best work with, I guess,
Jenny Plant 16:56
I suppose it’s like the old principles of niching, isn’t it, the more niche you are, the more expert you appear, and the more you can charge, etc. The other thing you said about selling your business was that a lot comes down to the leadership, the people and the culture. Can you talk to me a bit around that? Like, what do you see for acquiring businesses, what are they looking for specifically? Or is that part of your role to match the cultures? And if so, what are you looking for? How do you decide whether that potentially it could be a good fit?
Mark Sainthill 17:32
Good question. There is no shortcut, it’s a two way process, when you’re selling an agency and introducing the founders to buyers, it’s a two way thing. It comes to a point when, actually, the buyer needs to work quite hard to impress the sellers, that it is the right fit and there are things like considering how the businesses will fit together, protecting the team and making sure they don’t get subsumed. Also that there is opportunity for growth and cross selling of clients. So, usually, it is much like do you get on and are you having good conversations, and is your philosophy about running companies and looking after teams aligned, the chemistry, I guess, and you would expect it at a leadership level, if there’s a fit and that should filter down into the rest of the business. But then also a breadth of leadership team and the quality of those leaders in terms of experience, which would ultimately fill gaps in the acquiring group. So it’s a bit of a combination of experience, and that chemistry and fit. I am going to admit to something I went through, I haven’t got a good experience of being involved in an M&A because when I was at Publicist Life Brands, I was general manager and it was essentially a reverse takeover, it was positioned as an acquisition, but that cultural fit was not a good fit. So I actually left as a result. That did not happen, that getting to know each side, spending the time to see and evaluate whether it was a good fit. What would you advise to make sure that no one has to go through what we went through? What would you advise is the best way of assessing fit, how long does it typically take? What are the parameters? Are there any particular things that you do to really make sure that it is genuinely a good fit? Another good question, ideally what you should have as you are growing your business, you are understanding who your potential buyers could be, and who’s complementary to your agency and partner with them and also trying to project with them. Hopefully that would lead to you spending more time with their team and your team spending time with their team. Because once you get into an M&A process, you don’t really want to be telling your team that this is going on, because it will be very disruptive. So the key staff will be introduced through a process, but the rest of the team you don’t really want to say so. I think if you can, the perfect M&A transaction is that it starts from these two agencies working really well together, there’s really good fit, they have worked on some great projects together and helped each other. Now let’s just let the advisors and the lawyers thrash out a deal. Let’s work together as soon as possible. So as soon as it becomes a financial transaction, there is less of that obvious synergy. So it would be a warning sign if they didn’t, if it wasn’t addressed upfront, in terms of that cultural fit.
Jenny Plant 21:07
That’s a really good shout, actually, it’s a really good piece of advice, you know, do a test project together work together, because you are going to see a lot in a short period of time and obviously, you can make up a project to work together on and I suppose, do you find that a lot of agencies who perhaps don’t have all of the skill sets, partner with other agencies, is that usually a trigger to start thinking about we worked so well together and actually, we’re complementary, why don’t we come together? In some way? Do you find that happens?
Mark Sainthill 21:40
A mixture really, but yes, I think that agencies need to, now that there are so many kind of services that are acquired by these big clients and that’s another reason that M&A happens, you reach a size, and really what your client or clients are looking for is one agency that offers all the different services rather than them having to manage multiple agencies. So it starts as a bit of smoke and mirrors, but the bigger agencies do pull together other agencies to be able to answer the entire brief. So it is obviously very, very common, it’s just that not often do small agencies like having to work into a big agency, because they never get paid on time and they never ever get the fees that they want. But as you say, it’s helpful if that relationship is tested, at least, to see whether it’s worth continuing a partnership.
Jenny Plant 22:43
Definitely, absolutely. What do you find are the biggest mistakes that people make when they start on this journey of looking to merge or acquire? Maybe start with, well, whichever one you want to start with.
Mark Sainthill 23:01
Merging. So merging businesses together is obviously quite difficult, because they have got to be equal in some way. But you don’t really want to be in a position where you have a deadlock of two businesses and two equal stakes, there usually has to be one that is the majority owner and controller, otherwise, there tends to be paralysis of making decisions. So on the merger side, it has to be an absolute slam dunk. Otherwise, you either never come to an agreement, or if it happens, the business do not succeed together, because of the differences. So they have got to have a very aligned journey together and potentially, when that exit would be, and that’s actually the same with acquiring business, you don’t want to acquire someone who’s going to disappear in a year. You really want someone who is hungry to work with you as part of your buying group, rather than just be setting off into the sunset with the money. So that is always important.
Jenny Plant 24:17
Okay, so who is buying right now? Who are they? Is it usually typically big agency groups? Is it tech companies? Is it management consultancies? What trends are you seeing in terms of acquisitions?
Mark Sainthill 24:37
Probably in marketing, I guess marketing and IT is in it as well.
There are lots of private equity backed groups of very different scales, some small buying agencies that are one million, two million revenue. And then, very, very big private equity houses that are backing businesses with hundreds of millions. So there they are set up with a buy and build strategy in mind to scale groups to fill in capability gaps and then move it on to the next prime equity house. They know how to do M&A and it is a very professionalised process. That’s a big group. There are also a lot of cross border M&A happening, we sold a business to a US group from the UK, which worked and then one from UK to France. So I think where there is a geographical need that makes a deal, or the rationale very easy.
So sometimes doing M&A within the same market can work and sometimes there are problems with it. But yes, I think there are a lot of emerging groups in specialisms, whether it’s digital, or creative or luxury, or B2B, that have got this, despite the environment and interest rates, there’s still a lot of private equity money. So I would say that is the strongest group. I mean, the tech giants, they acquire niche technology, rather than service businesses, but in the consultancy side, with extensions, and some of the big IT consultancies, they are always looking, but they are looking for big acquisitions that are going to move the needle, or something very niche. So it’s unlikely you’ll be bought by Accenture, unless you are over 100 people given their obvious size and scale.
Jenny Plant 26:47
Oh, that’s interesting. I didn’t know that. Before I go on to the last tranche of questions about the future and the agency landscape, can you just describe the steps that you go through? You said, the majority of agency owners come to you? And one of the first things they want to know is how much is my business worth? But after that step, how do you work out what the value is? And then where do you take them? What is your process for working with them?
Mark Sainthill 27:16
There are crude metrics around revenue and profit, but there are lots of qualitative points that decide. Usually an acquire will look at the business based on their profit, on a services business, and come up with a multiplier based on the quality of that business, the management, and the services, all those factors, then it will be based on their margins. So if they are doing more than 30% margins, that is a driver of valuation, if they are growing very quickly, and they have a very scalable model in an interesting part of the market, that all drives that higher valuation. So we would look at that as the basis of how the business is valued. Then really focus on which buyers would be the best strategic and cultural fit. But often, they come from different directions. So whether it is geographical, or whether it is a complementary business agency in the UK. We tend to pick a selection and see which ones the seller finds the most attractive, because it is not just the financial, or the headline, financial valuation, it is also what would their roles be within that group? What is the ability for that buyer to help accelerate that growth and deliver that growth? I always like to think that people would want a future role in that group, beyond the earn-out or beyond when they sell the business. So that I think is a good sign for when you feel like something is going to be a good transaction, is there is a role for them, that they will be excited about going forward.
Jenny Plant 29:09
Do you get any resistance to that? Because I’m just thinking, let’s suppose I am an entrepreneur with an agency owner that’s working on my own for 15 years growing the business and then I get acquired by a bigger group. Do you find that those entrepreneurial type people end up settling into a role which is effectively an employee again, I know they’ve got a big fat paycheck, so that might be a good sweetener, but you are still having to go from doing your own thing, making your own decisions to suddenly, the confines sometimes of a group. How do you find that transition?
Mark Sainthill 29:46
I am sure they find it difficult, losing control of their baby and the agency and having to operate under a different ownership it is difficult, and I think some people are innately entrepreneurial, and they do not like to work in big corporates. So they probably already have their mind on what their next business idea is, and the next business they are going to start. So either that buyer has to find a role within their group that enables them to do that, or they have to accept that they are going to have to find a management team to take on the responsibilities that they had. So I don’t think a buyer can expect that they are going to make that founder happy, or create a role for them. I guess everyone’s pragmatic, that some people might want to have a couple of years off, or they might want to start a new business.
Jenny Plant 30:43
Again, having come from a group like publicists, where they were very acquisitive, I saw it multiple times, with different characters coming and going. You wrote a really good post on LinkedIn Mark, and I would recommend anyone to follow you on LinkedIn, because I really enjoyed reading your posts. You were talking about the agency landscape, and also what’s coming up for agencies in the future. And I’d love it if you could just talk to us about what you are seeing, what’s changing, what should agency owners and account managers be aware of, in this evolving landscape?
Mark Sainthill 31:25
I don’t feel like I have got the kind of in depth knowledge of future technologies. But I am always interested to see what new agencies do pop up, how brands and agencies adopt those technologies. Obviously, there’s AI and ChatGPT has popped up, sort of out of nowhere, and that is going to be disruptive. And we talked about Web3 for the whole of last year, and there was mixed signals about how that’s going to affect agencies and to what extent they could adopt some of those technologies and create new revenue streams. But I think the example of ChatGPT was great, because we have been talking about AI for a few years, and it crept up very quickly. So I think you have got to have someone in your agency that loves this, loves exploring them, sharing ideas. There used to be the Head of Digital, that loved all things digital, and digitally related, and who would impart their wisdom on the future of the industry. This is even more important now. So I think this is really what it is about, we talk about it at Cactus and planning, with agencies, all around the now, the next and the future. I think you do need to – not to not start a new agency or switch off all your traditional revenue streams, but at least start considering experimenting, innovating, exploring the new technologies. Obviously, clients are so busy, they don’t have time to understand how they work or how you have to adopt them. So that should be your part of your relationship with them, to impart your wisdom and knowledge on them.
Jenny Plant 33:24
I really want to reiterate what you’ve just said, I think it’s really great advice. If you can find one or two ambassadors in your agency that are really switched on, and really keen to keep ahead of what’s happening with the changes and trends, then you could start with internal learning, having lunch and learn sessions where everyone is brought up to speed with what’s happening, because you are right, the ChatGPT really took us by surprise, didn’t it and all of a sudden. I’ve got it open most of the time. I don’t know if you’re using it, but I just find it so useful. This might be an unfair question – Do you think this is going to disrupt copywriting agencies or any particular type of agency?
Mark Sainthill 34:10
I think it will disrupt anything to do with business or professional services, It is quite scary to see the power of it. This is only version one. So really, if you can embrace it, it can create huge efficiencies. It can rewrite code and simplify code, so the whole development and engineering side of the digital world could be potentially significantly disrupted, as well as creative services when they bring in image and video beyond copywriting. We have already been speaking to agencies that are cutting out design time, video time and finding ways of creating rapid content through these tools. So, yes, it will be interesting to see how it’s regulated, if at all possible. I have listened to a few podcasts about it and it is sort of open source, but someone must own some of the intellectual property that’s been used. So we will see. I don’t think it is possible to regulate. I think we just have to embrace it and see how you can help your clients with it, whether it’s reducing time, reducing cost, or efficiency within the agency. So I think this still needs a human touch. But I think it would be the wrong thing to ignore it or not embrace it, definitely.
Jenny Plant 35:44
It will be interesting to see what happens as you say, if it’s cutting down production time, that’s going to potentially have an upside on profit margins. But if then you are passing on that cost to the client, or that saving to the client, then procurement teams are going to start getting more used to seeing reduction. We are talking over a period of time, and then maybe that’s going to ultimately squeeze the agencies at the front end again, when they are pitching. So yes it’s going be a very interesting thing. Any thoughts on the Metaverse? Because that was something I know, Cactus was talking about last year together with Web3.
Mark Sainthill 36:23
Yes, I think it is born out of gaming industry, and interactive worlds. I think it has been merged into e-commerce and other digital experiences. But I don’t think there is a high level of adoption for certainly people of my age, but, there’s a place for it alongside physical experiences. Ultimately, there is going to be the Google Glasses and the overlaying of AR and experiences, rather than us being locked into these virtual worlds. I think it has been overhyped, but still at a stage where there is still a lot of adoption to happen. Facebook could be giving away Oculus headsets, the fact is, they are still quite expensive. So unless we are able to experience the Metaverse in a high quality environment with our phones, or some kind of affordable headset, it’s going to be a long time before there is mass adoption.
Jenny Plant 37:41
Good point. Final question, if someone’s listening to this, and they have been thinking, I am well, niched, I think we’ve got a very specialist area of expertise. and I have been considering selling, if they are going to approach you what information should they have ready to open up conversations with you?
Mark Sainthill 38:04
Good question! What we usually do is start with a questionnaire that we let them go away with, that talks about their personal ambitions, as well as their business ambitions, their valuation expectations, what kind of money they are looking for. Then we can work out whether it’s achievable to sell in the short term, or if there is still more work to do. So it is aligning personal and shareholder ambitions, with what is realistic, around the quality of the business and the valuation of it.
Jenny Plant 38:42
Right, great advice. And just final question, have you got any parting words of advice, something that we haven’t talked about that you think would be valuable for agency owners to consider? Or think about when it comes to M&A?
Mark Sainthill 38:54
Another good question! I should have lots. I think consider your M&A as part of your business planning. Even if you’re not going to exit, make sure you write a business plan and consider that point if you are looking to grow. One way could be to partially sell your business through private equity and have another event. There isn’t a sort of one stop route to sell your business. So understanding your options as part of your business planning every year or every six months and consider that it could be a good route to growing or realising more value. Rather than just waiting until you think you’re ready to sell and then trying to push the button then.
Jenny Plant 39:47
Very good advice. And, Mark, thank you so much for joining me you have shared lots of interesting information. I’ve been scribbling down notes as we go i have learned a lot. So thank you so much. If anyone wants to talk to you about this, what’s the best way of contacting you
Mark Sainthill 40:07
Get me on LinkedIn, or my email is on the Cactus website. We would love to meet agency founders. It’s always it’s always a joy to meet these entrepreneurs and hear their challenges and successes. So yes, please reach out if you want to chat.
Jenny Plant 40:25
All right. We will leave your contact details on the show notes. Thank you so good.
Mark Sainthill 40:33
Thank you, Jenny.
