Welcome to Episode 77. On this episode, I chat to Dan Archer, a marketing expert for agencies.
This episode is packed full of practical tips to help you with your own agency’s marketing. Dan shares with me:
– the biggest challenges facing agencies when it comes to marketing their services
– practical and actionable advice for how to approach it
– what the most successful agencies right now are doing to market themselves
– and why you don’t necessarily have to be the agency personality on LinkedIn.
If you’re not already a member of the free Agencynomics community, then go to https://agencynomics.com. See all the benefits of joining, it’s absolutely free and for the value that you receive, you will not be disappointed.
Growing your existing accounts is one of the most overlooked sources of new revenue. If your account managers are proactively looking for ways to help your clients reach their goals, you will grow your revenue too. So if you have one or more account managers in your team and you want to make sure that they have the skills to retain and grow their accounts, then make sure you’re setting them up for success by investing in formal training. You’ll find more details about my training programmes here. You can also book a quick call with me to talk about your specific needs.
Transcript:
Jenny Plant 00:02
Today I’m delighted to have Dan Archer. Dan is Managing Partner at Cactus, Europe’s leading agency growth consultancy. He specialises in helping agencies with their own marketing, which is a topic we haven’t talked about on the podcast before. So I’m really excited about getting into some of the weeds with Dan and getting his advice. Now, Dan runs a New Business Mastermind programme for Cactus, and was also recognised as one of BIMA’s top 100 Most Influential People in digital and tech in 2021, and for business development in 2020, and 2021. So we really do have an expert here. Welcome, Dan.
Dan 00:44
Good morning. How are you doing?
Jenny Plant 00:46
It’s so great to have you on here.
Dan 00:49
Thank you. It’s great to be here, and hearing that kind of intro always makes me go “Oh, my God, no!” It really still does.
Jenny Plant 00:55
Is that really me!?
Dan 00:56
Recognising some areas like that, and we’ll come on to that in a bit is always really great. But yes, actually I’ve still got so much that I’m learning. There’s still so much for me to experience and stuff. So kind of hearing that just feels like, Oh, it’s just a little bit, but it’s fine. It’s fine, it’s all good!
Jenny Plant 01:15
You’ve achieved so much. And as you say, it’s just at the beginning, you’ve got so much more of your life to come. So, gosh, it’s going to be interesting to follow your progress. So let’s start off Dan – would you mind sharing more about your current role at Cactus? And how you’re helping agencies?
Dan 01:34
So when people ask me what do you do at Cactus? I’ve kind of got three roles really, which feels a little bit mad when you explain them out and Cactus is growing so much at the moment, we are going to start to dilute these out so we are more focused in each area. But three areas really – one is the growth of Cactus. So the wider strategy, and supporting our marketing manager, Louisa on implementation, so it’s focused on Cactus, and we’ve got our own growth ambitions, our own objectives to hit our own targets. So really focused on putting that strategy in place, having a really good marketing plan behind it, then helping Louisa to implement it, which for me, is really important, because if I’m working with other agencies and helping them with their own marketing, I think it’s really important that I still maintain that hands on approach. So I’m still practising what I’m preaching, and I’m still doing it, I never want to be in a position where I’m purely just consulting or talking to agencies, and I’m not actually doing that bit myself. I think it’s really good to still have a handle on actually doing it, sit, in the seat that the people I’m talking to are actually in and I’m helping them actually doing it themselves. So yeah, that’s really important for me. So that’s the first one. The second one is looking after all of our partnerships that we have. Ensuring we have specialist expertise to offer the agencies we work with. So when there’s something a little bit more deeper, a little bit more specialist, beyond what Cactus offers, that we can bring in the partners for that. For example, legal, we work with Hybrid Legal, so we bring them in if it’s something deeper, or outside of our core depth, or if it’s employee wellbeing, we might bring in Sante group, who specialise in that. So looking after those partnerships, and managing them a little bit or managing sounds a little bit wrong, it’s making sure they get the most value, and also we’re able to offer value back to them. Partnerships are a two way thing, it’s not a one way street. Making sure they know what we’re up to, we know what they’re up to, when we can cross promote and help each other that’s a really important part. The third bit is what we mentioned before, which is providing a mentoring support service to agencies, to agency owners, and also the marketing teams. When it comes to marketing, some have no one and then it’s just literally the founder who’s trying to do it and they are starting out running marketing for the first time. Others maybe are a little bit more advanced, they’ll have resource within that area, they’ll have expertise, but they need some external perspective too as they grow. That’s often a really important part of where I come in. It isn’t always the telling them what to do, it’s almost just being an external perspective, looking at what they’re doing, bringing some of that external insight in and thinking and trying to get outside of that agency echo chamber if you like. We have all seen inside an agency where you can sit down, you’re discussing something and stuff can feel like it’s just inside the four walls, but actually bringing an external person in is that tool to either call bullshit or to expand on something or just bring a different perspective and this can sometimes be the difference between an idea being a good one and idea being a really, really good one that’s going to work. So yeah, that’s my three areas at the moment.
Jenny Plant 04:52
Right. And I mean, gosh, that definitely keeps you busy as well Dan and I know how busy you are and I’m very grateful for you making this podcast to be honest.
Dan 04:59
You are welcome!
Jenny Plant 05:01
About the third point – that you are helping agencies with marketing, I suppose some agency owners listening to this may already have an in-house marketing person that’s dedicated to marketing their agency. And maybe others are listening thinking, well, that sounds like a great idea. Currently, I’m doing that job, would you also potentially help them with hiring the right person as well. So they may want some initial support from you about their strategy, but also, they might want someone hands on full time.
Dan 05:30
Exactly. There are a couple of different areas really. Either an agency wants to start marketing themselves, or market themselves better, in which case, then I can bring some of my experience and work with them to do that. Or it might be they’re looking to hire someone for the first time and they haven’t hired a marketing manager before. It’s quite a specialist role to bring in and it’s quite unique as well to the agency as to what type of person comes in, what that person should be doing. How they are renumerated, what does the structure look like internally? What are the objectives of marketing? That is a really important thing to consider. For some agencies, what they want to get out of having a marketing manager can be very different to some other agencies. So helping them define what that role should look like, and then being a part of the recruitment phase. So sitting in on in interviews, maybe looking over some CVS, looking over different candidates, and just offering again, that perspective around who might be more suitable, based on my experience, to help guide founders through that if they haven’t done that before. Then, at the other side, hopefully, when you have found the right candidate, they come in helping to onboard them. Again, if the agency hasn’t had a marketing person internally before, they are probably going to be quite unsure about how do they onboard that person, what do the first 90 days look like? What should their initial priorities be? The ambition sometimes can be almost to do too much at once, and they come in and try to do too much. So just putting a little bit of pace behind that. Just tapering it a bit, so it is channeled in the right way, and the end efforts are going into the right things at the right time without trying to do everything within 90 days. Because that’s just not possible, and it’s going to burn out, we know marketing is a long term thing, it’s a consistent thing that you invest in for the long term. So yes, certainly that kind of initial upfront, the recruitment, and then the onboarding is a really important part for sure.
Jenny Plant 07:30
Just out of interest, and suddenly, it’s just occurred to me if someone’s listening to this again, and perhaps they don’t have a dedicated new business person or a dedicated marketing person. Is there a case where sometimes that is the same person in your experience? Do you find that this is always a separate function?
Dan 07:48
For me, and you might get different opinions, depending on who you talk to here, for me they are two separate things. A marketing and a new business or a marketing and sales person that they are two separate roles. And the reason being is you need a marketing person focused on taking the proposition to market identifying the target audience, building an early stage pipeline, which then can qualify and move through, and it’s at that point, then the sales or the new business person takes over, because that’s a very specific job marketing serves a very specific job. The sales and your business part is very specific too and I don’t believe the same person can do that, because they are two different skills. There are different approaches in there. There are similarities, of course, and those two have to work very closely together, and there is a stage of the pipeline, where the two crossover, so there has to be a good working relationship, has to be good rapport. They both have to understand what the business is trying to achieve, how they are trying to do that and the different strategies in place. But yes, for me they are two separate roles working on very two distinct parts of the pipeline. If you are looking at or if you are thinking about- okay, what do I hire first? And I get this question a lot- to hire a marketing person first, or hiring a new business person first. My answer is always going to be you need a marketing person, if you don’t have either of the roles in-house at the moment, bring a marketing person in to raise fame, take your proposition to market, get some leads coming in, get some conversations going out, some opportunities coming in, because that’s the role the new business person won’t do, they’re going to be more focused on conversion, they’re going to be more focused on campaigns, and converting and if they are you need that pipeline for them to then convert. So for me, it’s a marketing first to build the pipeline, and then when you start building the pipeline and you start getting leads pushing through, then is the right time to say okay, we need someone then to take the next stage. So yes, in short, for me, they are two separate roles and the marketing one is probably the most important one first, and then you bring in the sales and a new business role.
Jenny Plant 09:49
That’s really useful. Thank you. So you’ve been recognised by BIMA, and you obviously just demonstrated your knowledge of the marketing funnel, but you have been nominated quite a few times by BIMA. So you obviously know your stuff. You have been recognised both for your work in business development, and also the marketing, or digital and tech. So how does that process work? How do you get nominated? Just quickly, just so that if anyone’s listening, thinking, I know BIMA, but I don’t know how I would get nominated? How does it actually happen? Can you just shed some light on that?
Dan 10:24
I mean, it’s stuff like that, for me, I’ve never set out to do that. And I’ve always said, when the opportunities come up, or, it’s come about, it’s always quite humbling. I have always felt really honoured to be recognised by some of the industry’s top league tables, like the ones you mentioned, then it’s always an absolute privilege, the processes in a year are pretty consistent amongst the different ones which occur, and that process is usually a nomination, and then you provide some context that’s followed, then by a due diligence and validation phase to make sure everything is credible. And to make sure there’s no bullshit, that everything is as accurate and as credible as possible. And there is so many amazing, talented people in this industry, it can feel, definitely, for me, it feels quite an impostor syndrome. Like, why should I be up there named with those people in these league tables. But it’s always a really great feeling and meeting those other members of the league tables. So people will be nominated or have gone through to make the final list, spending time with them is always incredibly valuable in terms of personal development. So for me, it’s never been when I’m lucky enough to be nominated it has never been a case of, great, I’ve got these credentials. For me, I’ve always seen it as an opportunity, – of wow, there’s a whole load of new people I perhaps didn’t know before, or some people I haven’t spoken to in a while. So I always use it as a really good opportunity to go, – great! there’s my meeting list for the next few months there are the people I want to go meet, build a relationship with, and understand. If I have known them before, and have a relationship with them great, perfect chance to talk to them again, if I don’t know them before, even better, new people to add to my network, and talk to.
Jenny Plant 12:09
That is a really good point, actually. And just by the way, anyone that I’ve ever met, that’s very high performing, they often talk about impostor syndrome. I think it’s one of these innate things you have, if you’re very good at what you do, and you are constantly driving yourself to be better, then there’s always that feeling that I could be doing more. So that is a very humble position. Thank you for sharing that. Let’s talk about marketing agency services, because I’m sure lots of people listening, that have an account management role within the agency, or they could be in an agency leadership role. Just typically, when you meet all of these agency owners, through your work with Cactus, what are some of the biggest challenges that agency owners face when it comes to actually marketing their own services?
Dan 12:59
You know, I think there is probably top issues that agencies come to us with and there are a couple of things. First one is definitely going to be messaging. Proposition isn’t clear enough, internally and externally. This then makes communicating it through a marketing plan really hard, and then consistency is probably the second one. I feel very few agencies truly nail marketing, and I include myself in that, include Cactus in that , the thing is we do we do really well, that I’m really happy with, but there are things that we want to do, that we are not doing yet. Things we need to improve on. So I feel, Marketing is never, never done, there’s always improvements you can make, there’s always new things you could be doing. The consistency thing – most have this in a sign wave of activity, it’s a focus, which rises and falls in peaks and troughs, and the most successful managed to get things happening consistently. So you avoid that peaks and troughs type of activity wave, and everything is just a little bit more constant. Everything is just happening constantly and ideally that wants to be on an upward trajectory. So as you are doing more things, spinning plates, when you’ve got a few plates spinning, you are adding a few more, that you keep the other ones spinning. Once you’re happy with that you add another one and everything is just growing consistently and hopefully there should be a correlation between as the agency scales, then the activity within marketing and the marketing proficiency also scales with it. Leads coming in gradually rather than in bursts of leads, or no leads, because they are incredibly hard to manage, and it’s exhausting as well. When you’ve got marketing that looks like that, because you are putting all your efforts into getting stuff done. There is all the pressure and stress that comes with it, and then it backs off while work is being delivered while leads have been inverted, etc., etc. And then the focus gets put back on, foot goes on the gas again and off it goes again everything starts to build so it is not a great use of time, it is not the most efficient use of time. I think if you can strive for anything, it’s just getting that consistency going.
Jenny Plant 15:05
I’m sure a lot of people listening to that are furiously nodding along.
Dan 15:10
I hope so. Because that is definitely one of the most common things I see when I talk to agencies, it is that kind of peaks and troughs activity
Jenny Plant 15:18
Absolutely spot on. I think. You mentioned the first thing was messaging/proposition. First of all question about your agency’s key proposition, do you think that’s something that’s always fixed? Or do you think that is something that people should be revisiting on a regular basis?
Dan 15:35
I would definitely be revisiting it, keep it front of mind. The worst thing you can do is have a proposition and go great, we’ve done that shelve it, we are not going to revisit it for a couple of years. I think that it has to be a constant, it’s a moving feast, your proposition development.
The thing is as the industry moves and changes and your target customers and your prospects, their pains and challenges is also shifted, driven by their own customer expectations and needs and everything moves so quickly, I think you have got to constantly be evaluating your proposition, your services which underpin it,
that’s how you deliver it, to make sure that you’re still relevant. And by doing that, looking at this every quarter, at least, is good. Check in with it, looking a little bit more every six months, at least once a year, be focusing on it, and bringing in some external perspective, run some insight pieces, talk to your network, talk to clients, find out what’s going on, bring all that insight together, aggregate it into a way which allows you to then test your existing proposition and go, is this still relevant? Is what we are doing? and how do we position ourselves? Is that still what our audience need? Is it what they want, is the demand still there?. By doing that, constantly, you will stay at the forefront of relevancy, which is going to help your agency grow. The worst thing you can do is not doing that, you start to edge backwards, become less relevant, and it’s really hard to catch up with that. So it’s definitely something you should be reviewing as frequently as possible.
Jenny Plant 17:07
Great tips there. Do you have any kind of rules of thumb when people are thinking about their proposition because I know, this is something that quite a few people talk about, they talk about go really narrow, go really niche, go niche in a vertical, go niche horizontal, be really, really specific? Do you have any rules of thumb, when you’re guiding people to get the perfect proposition for what they’re looking at, or looking for, at that stage in their growth right now?
Dan 17:33
I think it’s back to that consistency piece, the best ones are the ones which they stay in their lane. So define a proposition, they know the problems they solve, they know the target audience, and they keep that, they keep that narrow, then they niche that down. Then the niching is what’s going to be most valuable and successful.
I think we are seeing a shift in industry where the generalists are less in demand, and brands, businesses, whoever your target audiences is, they are going to be looking for specialists in key areas. So if you can define your proposition, keep it true to you through your market and make sure you’re really consistent with how you take that to the market, make sure everything underpins it. Your culture as well, your internal culture of the agency has to, underpin that proposition as well, that proposition has to live and breathe through your people, as well as your your products and services. If you stay in your lane, and keep it front of mind all the time, that is going to be the most successful for you and most beneficial.
Perhaps then being distracted along the way, the worst? There’s no true straight and narrow path in agency growth. It is that old – what looks like consistent growth is actually when you zoom in, is up and down failings and all sorts of stuff. But when it comes to your proposition, and how you’re taking that to market, it has just got to be consistent and make sure you are not getting too distracted, or at least at least publicly from an external basis. There is going to be those internal jobs, which some jobs come in, or some projects coming in or land, which are outside of your key area. But that’s all right, you run an agency, you run the business, you have to keep the lights on. So there’s always going to be those projects you do. But for the most part, stick to your proposition. That is what you become known for, and that arguably is going to be your biggest success. Building out that uniqueness and what you’re known for in what is otherwise a really crowded industry. So you have to just pick a niche, pick a core proposition that works for you and just stick with it.
Jenny Plant 19:44
I think it was a really good point you made about making sure that your internal culture is also reflecting your proposition, your values, and in fact, I have two questions because I’ve been through this in my past at Publix, We used to run brand workshops. There was a multitude of things that we used to discuss with the clients. What are your values, your mission statement, your brand, ID, your brand voice, your position, your proposition? And sometimes it is really overwhelming. Now, so far in this interview, you have come back to that core term “proposition”. Do you think that there is this when you work with your clients, do you ensure that it is simplified in that sense?
Dan 20:29
Yes, definitely, and the clients I work with, and those who know me listening to this, well, hopefully, they will see that coming through that I always strive for consistency and clarity in messaging, and the best propositions are the most simple. It used to be 5 or 10 years ago, you could differentiate yourself by having a bit of a complex proposition and using a little bit of jargon and buzzwords that would almost stand you out, and clients will look at those agencies and be like, they really know this stuff, they sound really, really clever. That’s changed, it’s flipped the other way. Now, I think brands and businesses are looking at agencies, and if their proposition isn’t really clear, they can’t straightaway see the value that they create, and the problem they are solving, They will look elsewhere, they are not going to spend that time poorly, they are not going to spend too much time trying to understand and go into the depths of the the agency site to understand the proposition. So simplicity is definitely key. If you can explain what you do, why you do it, that’s the problem you solve and the value you create, you do that as simply as possible using just really simple terms and just get really, really clear. They are the agencies which are definitely going to be the most successful, because we are all time, poor, there are pressures going on, and by having something overly complex, you are just going to put people off, they are not going to have time, and they are not going to be bothered to try and work out – Okay, I think what you do is this. I’m just going to go and read that other web page, read that case study, read that blog post, maybe give you a call to explain that a little bit more. They’re not going to go through that they’re going to spend the first 30 seconds and go, can you help me with the problem I’ve got? Or can I see the problems I have on your site, in your proposition? Does that talk to me? And that’s going to be by using just really plain terms, really simple terms.
Jenny Plant 22:25
I bet there’s a few people like me listening to you right now thinking, Oh, I must revisit my website, because it’s been ages since I’ve looked at it. And I wonder if it’s succinct and clear, as you’re recommending, which I think is super advice. On this theme, Dan, can you share some of the most successful strategies for marketing your agency right now?
Dan 22:48
Okay, I think the best ones are as I said before the ones who stay in their lane and stay true to the proposition. Everything comes back to it. So making sure whatever they are doing, from any content, or any activities considered, and the positioning is considered, how they want to be perceived, keeping the target audience in mind to thinking about, okay, who is our target audience? Have we got that defined? Do we know what type of business they are in? What type of role they are doing, the pains and problems they probably have? And then making sure that anything we do to talk to them answers them and doesn’t get distracted by all the other ideas or thoughts that are going on. Just really keep it to who are we talking to? Does it communicate to them who we are and what we do. So keeping it really simple and stay in your lane is one thing. The other one is probably that agencies were really focused on relationships. This seems bizarre, it’s always relationships towards referrals, but it is the most successful one at the moment, we are seeing referrals engaged in their network by the clients. So that might be active, it might be lapsed or might be dormant and using the network, they have probably spent considerable time, money and effort curating for commercial gain.
Not many people use their own network, their personal network or their business network effectively enough, most people will spend 50 quid a month maybe on LinkedIn, they might spend a little bit more on having Sales Navigator, they might be posting a lot, building up their personal brand profile, their identity, their reputation, call it what you will, creating in the network, connecting with people, building them up and up. But how are they actually then using that to drive leads or referrals back into their business? I think I have seen agencies scale really consistently year after year on just this strategy alone.
And it’s worthwhile investment, but it does really require everyone in the business understanding what we mean by referrals, who a target referral is, how we ask for it, how we make it, how we then track it and follow through with it. So everyone has to be brought in and understand it. But it is not just for the founder and the marketing person to do that. There’s a much wider cultural input into that, but yes, referrals and using your network is a huge thing at the moment, and some of the best agencies we’re scaling are doing that really well, and not doing much else to be really honest.
Jenny Plant 25:12
Can you give us a few more tips around that? Anything that if someone’s thinking, Yes, that’s a really good idea. I’m not doing that. Where would they? Can you just give a few pointers?
Dan 25:23
First of all, your own personal network, you’ll say, Okay, well, how do I expand my network? How do I talk to people? How do I connect with people,
one of the most simple things you can do and anyone who is listening to this and knows me will say, Yeah, I’ve heard you say that before, hopefully, hopefully, you’re doing it. If you’re not doing it, I’ll say it again, you should do this, download your LinkedIn network into a CSV really easy to do within like four clicks, you can do it, reorder it, by the last time you connected with someone, so you’ll hopefully have your oldest connections first, and then go through that and use that as your core list, because if they are the people you’ve connected with the longest time ago, they are going to be the people you probably haven’t spoken to most recently, they will almost certainly have moved on and changed jobs since you last went through. So literally go through and use that as your core list and say, Okay, who can I contact on this list.
So you might land on this person here, who’s actually doing quite an interesting job – I didn’t know they were doing that. So I’ll maybe re engage them, send them a message set up call, and literally, set yourself a target of either weekly or monthly to call them out and to go through. That’s how you can use your network, go through have a meaningful conversation, we call it at Cactus to have a meaningful conversation with that person. Ask them what you can do to help them. Let them know what they could do to help you. And go away, or come away from that call making sure they understand who you are, what you do. You understand what they do and where they are and make sure there is a good, good communication between the two of you about how the other person could help you and often just asking the most obvious question of, “Jenny, what can I do to help you?” can obviously sometimes be the most powerful question to ask that gets a conversation going. Or, creates that kind of debt, if I’m asking you what I can do to help you and I’m making a note of that, and I’m thinking about that you’re naturally going to feel indebted to then ask me so well, then what can I do for you? Then you start to have a natural conversation about the wants and needs of each individual, and where the overlaps are. And if you do that, at scale, woe betide anyone who doesn’t get leads or opportunities coming from that. So that’s one thing I would say from your own network. The second thing and a second tip, I would say from a referrals basis is going through whatever you use, the agency uses as a CRM. So for clients, it might be active clients, lapse clients, dormant clients, revisit those lists and re-engage those people. I speak to countless agencies. and I say, When did you last speak to your lapsed or dormant clients? And they say, Oh, we haven’t, we really just speak to our current ones. You can pull up the list and go through and contact all of your lapsed or dormant clients, re-engage them, give them an update on what you are doing, at the moment, some successes you’ve had, ask about their business, ask about what’s going on inside the business now, has anything changed since you last spoke, and again, just a simple task like that could take you a couple of weeks to go through and there will be some opportunities come from it. I have not met an agency who have not had at least one or two new opportunities come through from doing that. And it is a really, really simple thing. It doesn’t cost you anything other than time. All it requires of you is having a commitment to contact people, put in some time and just be dedicated to doing it. I think there’s two tips you can do, You can do today, if you haven’t done that already.
Jenny Plant 28:39
That is super, super advice. Dan, thank you so much for sharing, I think that’s just such good advice. Because they’re effectively warm leads, they’re people that hopefully like and trust you and hopefully have had a good experience with working with you in the past.
Dan 28:54
Also, if there’s anyone in that list who perhaps didn’t have a really good one, the client off-board and their experience might not be in a good one. And we have all had that we have all had where client relationships haven’t ended brilliantly and you think about okay, it might be a bit awkward. I don’t I think give it some time! Time is a healer, old cliche, re-engage that person and things will have moved on, things will have changed. Things will have matured and developed, hopefully water under the bridge all that and really it’s a good chance to really re-engage those people so you shouldn’t be avoiding talking to certain ones. I think it’s a good chance to revisit them. Re-establish a relationship even if it didn’t end particularly well. Life’s too short to have negative relationships hanging over us.
Jenny Plant 29:44
Again, that’s great advice. I am sure some people are listening or thinking, right, you’ve just energised me. That’s a great, great piece of advice.
Dan 29:48
I hope so!
Jenny Plant 29:51
I’m sure you have, honestly, I was just thinking, with the latter scenario we were talking about maybe a client either left badly or not really 100% – you didn’t know them that well, or it wasn’t one of your great client relationships. Would you in that instance, rather than just saying, do you want to catch up kind of thing? Because who’s got time for a catch up nowadays? I mean, sometimes unless I really liked someone, then actually we have all got really busy lives nowadays, when it’s hard to find time to just for nothing, would you in that instance, kind of talk about, I don’t know, proposing sending them a white paper or sending them some piece of value or anything that you would suggest giving to them first, rather than just saying, “Here I am. Let’s catch up”.
Dan 30:38
Yes, I think rather than just a catch up, because who has time for catch up? Catch up is very vague, and it’s not. So you have got to make it benefit driven. If you’re asking someone for catch up, then you have to make sure that it is going to be a valuable use their time. So make sure you communicate what you’re trying to get out of it, what you can offer in exchange for that. So having something. some insight or some perspective, or something to share. So a thing like a white paper is pretty good to share. It might be an opinion, it might be something you’ve seen, you might be asking them for a favour. But then obviously having the value exchange of what can you do back in return? But yes, definitely avoiding just an open vague, “Hey, would you like to catch up”? Because they never come, they are the calls none of us really have got time to do. So. Yes, having some reason for doing it is definitely important.
Jenny Plant 31:30
So this is great advice so far Dan. So thank you for sharing. What else do you think agency owners are overlooking? I mean, you’ve just clearly laid out a complete strategy for looking at their current networks on LinkedIn, and picking up the phone, and just creating some activity, what else are they missing out on?
Dan 31:53
It’s a good question. For me, number one is, understanding the person the business and assuming organisations have the same challenge that can be solved in in one hit. It takes time. So what I mean by that is it takes time and patience and successful marketing of your agency. As long as a marketing agency is a long term play, that it is not going to bear fruit simply in a few months. So often, founders will say they want to leave right now, That’s not always possible. The term quick wins, I really hate, there are no quick wins, or at least the ones that do exist are the same ones that everyone else is doing, and in such a crowded industry, differentiation is vital. And if you’re not differentiating, then you’re not going to stand out. So understanding the person, the business and the challenges they have is going to be really really important because that allows you to contextualise what it is you’re talking about. It allows you to be really targeted with your messaging, with your marketing tactics, and you’re making it relevant to the person you’re talking to, I think the biggest turnoff for many brands, when agencies contact them, they contact them with such a broad opinion or perspective, that it captures all but it’s relevant to none. But I think if you can really focus that in and cherry pick who your prospects are, do a little bit of due diligence on them. Try that even if it’s just some assumptions you make
if you can at least have those assumptions and managed to get a call with them or talk to them, then you can validate those assumptions. If they’re right, great, you’re on a great conversation. If they’re wrong. It’s like okay, so if this is wrong, what is right, where does this go? Most clients when you talk to them, or most prospects, when you talk to them, will help, will correct you or shape you and that’s all insight, right? That’s all insight, which is helping you if you made an assumption that was wrong. And a prospect is correcting you to what their problem actually is, or the nuances in their business which affect it. Brilliant. I hope you’re writing this down because this is your brief to respond to. This is what you go away, think about and come back to me to say – look, that problem you told us existed.? Here’s what we think our solution is, here’s what you should do. Here’s how you go about it. So yes, understanding the business or the individual. And assuming everyone’s the same is a is a big no, no, I think you need to really focus that down and have a really targeted plan.
Jenny Plant 34:13
Great advice. So take the time to do a bit of research and due diligence rather than kind of just picking up the phone and going for it. That’s good advice. Can you share any examples of agencies that you think are leading the way? And if you don’t want to mention names, perhaps some best practice examples of agencies that are really leading the charge?
Dan 34:35
Yes, I think there are so many agencies who do it really, really well. And I think as I mentioned before, they are the ones who are focused on building relationships with clients. Understanding prospects, pains and needs, asking questions, getting insight, rather than doing the broader kind of hit and hope stuff. They’re the folks in it down there. niching it down. They’re also the ones who have a really good referral plan in place, and they use their networks and everyone in the agency understands it as good internal communications, and they’re really focused on building the right relationships with their prospects. And understanding that they are probably not going to win a brief within the first couple of conversations, it’s going to take a little bit of time to build up, build up the trust, build up the integrity, prove and validate their worth and their knowledge. So it takes a little bit of time and it goes back to back to my point earlier about marketing isn’t just a quick way, and it’s not something you can turn on a tap and start winning work straight away. It’s going to be something that you do consistently, it has a focus to it. And, yes, I think by doing those two things, I think they are the agencies which are doing their best at it. And there’s so many who are doing it, doing it great. I certainly don’t want to sit here and Name Check individuals, because there’s so many who are doing it brilliantly. But there’s also on the flip side, there’s also agencies you see doing stuff and I see it all the time on LinkedIn, or I get an email, or in a conversation with them, and just, the in the back of my mind, going, Oh, I could have done that so much better, or that could have been – or why aren’t you doing this? And that often forms the conversation, I’m a massive oversharer when it comes to marketing stuff. So any agency I’m talking to, if there’s something I think they could be doing better, I’m normally saying, Have you tried this? Have you tried this? Have you tried that, which I am probably doing myself out of some future consulting opportunities there, because I’m giving everything away now. But there’s so much right in the industry, but there’s also so much not going right. But equally, agencies have to figure this stuff out on their own, they have to experience it, and they will do stuff, which won’t work. And they’ll do things which isn’t great. And they’ll learn from it. And then hopefully, they start developing things and they find the thing which works for them. And they hopefully go in that direction.
Jenny Plant 37:01
If it’s any consolation, I do give a lot away for free. And I just think there’s karma there. I think there’s enough business for everyone. And helping people, because I know that you have a genuine want to help people and that comes through in spades. And I think you do, I think it’s great that you that you help so many people. I’m curious to know your thoughts on agency owners that perhaps have seen other agency owners becoming quite personalities in their own right on LinkedIn, becoming thought leaders. Like Steven Bartlett, for example, a classic example isn’t it? was someone who rose to the top, brought to his agency with him or Gary Vaynerchuk, another, he’s leading Vayner Media, they are the ones that were at the forefront. And for those agency owners that perhaps haven’t done that to date, but are watching others do it? What are your views on becoming the face of the of the agency brand?
Dan 38:03
I think you have to do what’s right. Right for you, and what feels comfortable, all agency owners are people, and everyone is individual. Everyone has their own confidences, everyone has their own stuff they are good at, stuff they’re not so good at. And I think some will want to be more out there, they will be more extroverted, they want to be leading the charge and want to be the face of it. Other agency owners will just want to be in the background orchestrating things, they don’t want to be the outgoing ambassador, and they might default that to someone else in the agency to lead the charge and be the external face. And I think there’s no right or wrong answers. It comes down to who you are, what type of agency you are, what sort of founder you are, how visible you want to be. Do you? Are you really outgoing? Are you comfortable running webinars, hosting roundtables, doing public speaking? To some that comes naturally, and they are really happy to do it. Others it absolutely terrifies them, the thought of doing all that. And yes, I don’t think it matters too much. I think marketing your agency is really, really unique to you and your agency. I call it the marketing fingerprint. And what’s right for one agency isn’t always right for another, your successes will be different to others, they will occur within a different timeframe. I think if you use your strengths you play to your strengths, you keep things simple. You focus on building your own margin up consistently over a period of time and avoid trying to do everything at once and do it in stages. I think keeping it true to what your agency is about, what you are about as a person, your proposition, your culture, all these different factors. And I think that all makes up your individuality your uniqueness. That’s your marketing fingerprint. And I think it’s that uniqueness, which will actually make people notice you whether or not you’re some outgoing voice building a huge personal brand or you prefer to sit in the background and just orchestrate things. Again, some of the best agencies I know are run by agency owners who are quite introverted. They sit in the background orchestrating things. And, the agency wouldn’t be as successful without them doing that, than it would be if they were out at the front doing all the talks and being the face of it. So, yes, I think it’s whatever is right for you as an individual in your agency.
Jenny Plant 40:20
Great advice. Again, Dan, I agree with you. I think if it feels too uncomfortable, don’t do it, obviously, and do what is working well for you. And every agency is going to be different. Just a side question, really, we’re heading into what looks like recession. And there is a bit of a differing economic climate. And we are recording this in mid-November 2022. Any advice or any questions? First of all, are you hearing back from your agency owners that there’s any change in client activity yet? What are you hearing from everybody is there’s a little bit of anxiety around this.
Dan 41:02
So I think some are naturally concerned and are more cautious than others. But equally for every one which isn’t, we’ve probably got three which is experiencing that. And I think the reason for that is, we’ve been through massively uncertain and turbulent last couple of years, at least, I think there’s just a little bit of fatigue around how we’re going into recession, and then we’re doing this and the economy is going down the toilet, and all this kind of stuff. And I think everyone’s just getting a little bit immune to that now, and just going, we’ll just do what we can do – brands are just pressing on and doing, agencies are cracking on and doing what they need to do. So I think, yes, there’s always – for everyone who’s a bit cautious and a bit concerned by it, and rightly so, we all should be as responsible as we can. But equally, I think that there’s a huge opportunity for agencies, now to really partner with their clients and be very important partners for their for their growth and to partner with them, rather than just be maybe this supplier who delivers services like before. Now, they can actually be quite integral to what they do. And I think that’s where the opportunity for agencies is, to really understand their clients really get close to them, really spend time with them, and then help guide them through the coming years. I think that’s where the most security and stability is going to be for agencies if they can do that.
Jenny Plant 42:29
You’re right. I mean, we’ve been through probably the biggest upheaval over the last couple of years haven’t we, and I feel the same. I think agency owners are re-emerging and are looking at what is going to change now, what’s different, but, actually just crack on, as you said, Now, listen, I wanted to talk to you about your thoughts on the future. You’ve just hosted a very exciting event for Agencynomics. And I just wondered if you could just speak to that event a little bit? What was the event about? And I’d love to get your thoughts on how agencies will change in the future.
Dan 43:03
Okay. All right. Big Questions ! First one is what the event was about. So where are we now 14th November. So the event was last week and was on the eighth. It was around Web Three and what it would mean for agencies, and we intentionally when we were planning this event, this time last year, Agencynomics do the kind of a big we call it the big event. It’s like a day long, day of learning. Coincidentally, it’s a day of learning, for agency founders to come together and hear different perspectives and opinions. And we never approach it from a view of this is what’s going to happen, this is what you need to do. We always approach it from a, here’s some perspective around what’s going on. Here’s some different directions and things for you to think about. Discuss,
we always really encourage networking discussion. And none of the talks or content we put together and curate is aimed at this is what’s going to happen, it’s always about this is what might happen. Here’s some perspectives. Here’s some trends, here’s stuff we’re seeing. So the one this year that just happened was around Web Three. There’s a lot of buzz, we’re probably at the peak hype at the moment of Web Three, and whether or not we’re going to crash down into the trough of disillusionment anytime soon, perhaps, who knows? We want to just give some perspective to agency owners around what Web Three might mean for the agency in the coming future. Some recent surveys we run at Cactus identified that over 95% of agency owners were really uncomfortable with what Web Three meant. They have very limited knowledge on it, if any at all. They hear the words, but they don’t really know what it means. So we’ve chose to try demystify some of the terminology and explain in simple terms of here’s what Web Three means, and here’s what it might mean for your agency. And here’s a lot of different perspectives and opinions. So that’s what we did, and that’s what it is on. And also any thoughts on what’s your second question? What will thoughts be in the future where do we think where agencies will be in the future and what are your thoughts on that.
Jenny Plant 45:09
Yes and where will agencies be in the future? what are your thoughts on that?
Dan 45:12
Okay, I think nothing’s going to change immediately. That was really clear from everyone involved in the in the event this year. But there are huge opportunities in the coming years and something agencies should think about. And that’s what we wanted to do, we wanted to give them something to think about. This doesn’t mean an immediate change in proposition or service offering, more on understanding how businesses are changing, the developing needs of their customers, and being in the right position at the right time to offer a service or strategy, which is going to help them. I think Web Three is still a pretty new term. For many, It’s currently undefined and open for what Web Three actually means. There’s lots of different opinions and perspectives on what Web Three does actually mean. If you’re looking at it from a Web One and Web Two perspective, or are we actually in Web Three, or was Web Three to 10 years away? It’s quite subjective, or certainly the mainstream. So by upskilling, now, getting your head around things and understanding the technologies and trends that are happening, agency owners can be in the right place when the time is right for them. And that’s going to be different for every agency owner, there’s no template or framework that you can just take and go, Okay, we are now on Web Three and stick it on top. It’s going to be an evolution of the agency to understand, okay, where does their agency and their service offering fit into Web Three for their clients? Where do they fit in? What’s the knowledge gap like? And you might be working with some very legacy clients whose adoption of this thinking and these technologies is going to be quite a long way away. Some agencies might have clients who are a little bit more forward thinking with this and already thinking about stuff. So it really depends on the clients you have the services you offer, what part of the industry you work in. And that’s what we want to achieve. We just wanted to achieve some perspective and get people understanding things and think about things rather than trying to say, “here’s what’s going to happen, and this is what you need to do”. We would never say that. That is not our place to say, and I don’t think I know anyone who does that. But what we can do is just bring together some interesting opinions from some experienced individuals in the industry to share their thoughts and opinions on things.
Jenny Plant 47:25
That’s a great summary. And I think you achieved it in spades, by the way, and I was lucky enough to go to the event, and it was standing room only it was such a popular event.
Dan 47:33
So it was busy this year, which really strikes us, as well, we weren’t too sure how many people can come and make it and stuff. But yes, thankfully, it all worked out despite best efforts.
Jenny Plant 47:43
Absolutely. I mean, this topic is so front of mind at the moment. I think everyone came and I came away, learning heaps about Web Three about the Metaverse. I was interviewing Ben Fryer from Diverse Interactive, who dropped some real gems around what was going to happen in the Metaverse, some really interesting topics. So if anyone’s listening, and they haven’t been to your yearly event, I would highly recommend and we will put a link in the show notes to sign up for next year. Because you just don’t want to miss these events. They are cutting edge thought leaders and I know from the past couple of years, equally brilliant speakers. So this is really interesting, good advice as well. Every agency is going to be different, but I think the message is be informed, keep yourself up to date with what is changing. So Dan, listen, we’re coming up to the top of the hour, regrettably, because this has been so brilliant. Any final pieces of advice for any agency owners, or any account managers who are listening, and they feel that they need to up their marketing game for their agency?
Dan 48:45
Sorry, momentary lapse, momentary Mac freeze there!. Could you just repeat the question please Jenny?
Jenny Plant 48:58
Absolutely, yes – any final pieces of advice for agency owners or anyone in in the senior account management role, who have been listening and feel that they really need to up their marketing game for the agency?
Dan 49:11
I think, use your strengths. Keep things simple, and focus on building your marketing up consistently over a period of time. I mentioned that before, avoid trying to do everything all at once. Do it in stages. But above all, keep it true to your agency, your proposition and your culture. Make it about you don’t try and replicate what others are doing. Find what’s right for you and build on that. I mentioned your marketing fingerprint. And that’s really what you want to do, you want to create your marketing to successfully drive leads into the business to grow the business. And it’s not just from a view of grown in leads and stuff like that, marketing is not just about growing in driving new leads in and growing pipeline. That’s a massive harvest, clearly, but it’s also about how you market and how you position the agency to attract the best talent and to work on your own employee value proposition. So, yes, do what’s right for you, stay focused on what you’re trying to achieve. Focus on your own objectives and your own targets, and y do not be distracted by what’s going on – in that it’s a lot of noise out there, there’s a lot of hype and stuff. So just focus on what you’re doing, and just keep it true to you.
Jenny Plant 50:22
What sage advice! Thank you, Dan, and if anyone wants to talk to you about either your consultancy services, around marketing and new business, maybe joining one of the mastermind groups, for agency owners for Cactus, what’s the best way of getting hold of you?
Dan 50:39
I’d say best thing is, follow Cactus on LinkedIn we share loads of stuff on there. If you’re an agency founder and independent agency founder, apply to join Agencynomics, their community, there’s loads of great stuff going on there. But other than that, I’m pretty active on LinkedIn so you can find me on there. Just be prepared to have a kind of introduction conversation, as I said, networks really important. So I try and maintain a really warm network with everyone I know. I don’t like cold connections. So as long as you’re open to having a quick conversation to introduce one another, then perfect connect away. And I’ll speak to you on there.
Jenny Plant 51:12
And that was a good tip actually keeping your LinkedIn network very close.
Dan 51:18
Yes, keep it trimmed!
Jenny Plant 51:20
Dan, thank you so much for everything that you’ve shared. This has been really invaluable and I can’t wait to publish it. So thank you so much.
Dan 51:26
You are so welcome. Thanks a lot, Jenny.
